Era brakes Upgrade

[lippy]

When I ordered my ERA and was considering brake options, I spoke with Wilwood and others to try to come up with an optimal but cost effective solution. After a bunch of work I just ended up with the ERA/Wilwood big brake option for the fronts only. It just works and it isn't really more expensive. You may want to consider just ordering the upgrade parts from ERA. It'll probably save you a headache. At very least call Bob and spend some time with him on the phone.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by lippy

When I ordered my ERA and was considering brake options, I spoke with Wilwood and others to try to come up with an optimal but cost effective solution. After a bunch of work I just ended up with the ERA/Wilwood big brake option for the fronts only. It just works and it isn't really more expensive. You may want to consider just ordering the upgrade parts from ERA. It'll probably save you a headache. At very least call Bob and spend some time with him on the phone.

You're right, I will talk to Bob about that option, but I think it is a LOT more expensive of an option. If it was close to the same money, I would go that route for sure.

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

You're right, I will talk to Bob about that option, but I think it is a LOT more expensive of an option. If it was close to the same money, I would go that route for sure.

Did Bob indicate if it requires a change in the master cylinder?

Also, I would not be too worried about the single reservoir. Even if a leak develops in the rear system and drains all the fluid out of the reservoir, as long as the front system is tight it will remain in operation. Only if you develop a leak in both master cylinder/line/caliper systems would you lose all brakes. And even then, multiple reservoirs may not help.

A single reservoir is different than a single master cylinder. I have a 66 Corvette with a single piston/circuit master cylinder. With it, a line failure anywhere will leave me totally without brakes (except emergency)

[DanEC]

I agree with Doug that the Girling cans are a bit of a pain and fragile but installing Dorman seals in the lids has taken care of all issues of leaks for me. I keep the cans just over half full and with the lid seals I don't have any leaks. When I remove the lids I usually find the lid seals are slightly distended indicating a good seal. The connections at the bottom of the cans have been a bigger issue. I re-sealed all of my cans with some good sealer in addition to the provided gasket washers.

Edit - to give credit where credit is due:

Patrick came up with the girling can lid gaskets.

ERAChase suggested using two hose clamps at each rubber line connection to the steel brake lines - with the scew tensioners spaced 180 deg apart - to prevent leaks.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by DanEC

I agree with Doug that the Girling cans are a bit of a pain and fragile but installing Dorman seals in the lids has taken care of all issues of leaks for me. I keep the cans just over half full and with the lid seals I don't have any leaks. When I remove the lids I usually find the lid seals are slightly distended indicating a good seal. The connections at the bottom of the cans have been a bigger issue. I re-sealed all of my cans with some good sealer in addition to the provided gasket washers.

Edit - to give credit where credit is due:

Patrick came up with the girling can lid gaskets.

ERAChase suggested using two hose clamps at each rubber line connection to the steel brake lines - with the scew tensioners spaced 180 deg apart - to prevent leaks.

Can you post some pics?

[DanEC]

Dave - it will be a couple days before I have access to my pictures
, but I will do so. Patrick may be able to post the info on the can lid seals.

On the reservoir - the brakes and the clutch cylinders normally only pull fluid from the reservoir to compensate for lining and clutch wear - a slow process. You have separate master cylinders for front and rear brakes and the clutch. If you blow the seal completely out of the clutch master and lose all the brake fluid in the reservoir - your brake systems are still full of fluid and tight and will operate fine. There will even be some fluid left in the lines to the brake masters from the reservoir since there are three lines. You should have brakes until the linings wear some more or a seal leak in the brakes develops.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Dave - it will be a couple days before I have access to my pictures
, but I will do so. Patrick may be able to post the info on the can lid seals.

On the reservoir - the brakes and the clutch cylinders normally only pull fluid from the reservoir to compensate for lining and clutch wear - a slow process. You have separate master cylinders for front and rear brakes and the clutch. If you blow the seal completely out of the clutch master and lose all the brake fluid in the reservoir - your brake systems are still full of fluid and tight and will operate fine. There will even be some fluid left in the lines to the brake masters from the reservoir since there are three lines. You should have brakes until the linings wear some more or a seal leak in the brakes develops.

Dan,
My thoughts: I understand about the 3 masters perfectly.
1) Clutch: Since the draw from for the clutch is the highest(middle of the reservoir) You could blow out the clutch master and still have brakes because you still would have half of the reservoir full of fluid. It has nothing to do with the brake masters being sealed at all.
Also, if you blew out the brakes, front or rear, you will drain the res instantly, leaving you with no clutch and stranded
2)Brakes: If you were to ...uh oh, the light bulb just went off! I was thinking of it like bleeding the brakes! So if you did leak from the rear and lost all your fluid in the res, you would still have front brakes because the line is going to a different master. The front would only call for fluid from the res to compensate for lining wear or a leak, and because the front brakes are not leaking, there is no call for fluid from the res. In theory, it sounds good...sill scary!
Still no clutch...LOL
Thanks...Dave
EDIT the next morning: Perhaps the clutch master works the same way as what you said about the brake master cyls. So even if I lost all my fluid thru a leak in the brake line. I would still have a clutch even though there is no fluid in the reservoir?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Patrick may be able to post the info on the can lid seals.

Of course Patrick can post pics of his cans. Think of it as a can-can.

Here are the Dorman rubber seals that fit under the lids:



... and here is my thread on the only stuff I've found that really seals against brake fluid.

Brake Fluid Resistant Sealant for Girling Reservoirs

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Did Bob indicate if it requires a change in the master cylinder?

Also, I would not be too worried about the single reservoir. Even if a leak develops in the rear system and drains all the fluid out of the reservoir, as long as the front system is tight it will remain in operation. Only if you develop a leak in both master cylinder/line/caliper systems would you lose all brakes. And even then, multiple reservoirs may not help.

A single reservoir is different than a single master cylinder. I have a 66 Corvette with a single piston/circuit master cylinder. With it, a line failure anywhere will leave me totally without brakes (except emergency)

I have not talked to Bob yet, I am hoping to call tomorrow morning.

I think I'm stupid, not really getting what you are saying here Dan. If I develop a leak in the rear brakes and it drains the reservoir I will be sucking air into the front brakes instead of brake fluid? I also will not have a clutch right?
Your corvette master cyl sounds the same as my 55 Chevy and my 60 Corvette.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Did Bob indicate if it requires a change in the master cylinder?

Also, I would not be too worried about the single reservoir. Even if a leak develops in the rear system and drains all the fluid out of the reservoir, as long as the front system is tight it will remain in operation. Only if you develop a leak in both master cylinder/line/caliper systems would you lose all brakes. And even then, multiple reservoirs may not help.

A single reservoir is different than a single master cylinder. I have a 66 Corvette with a single piston/circuit master cylinder. With it, a line failure anywhere will leave me totally without brakes (except emergency)

I talked to Doug today. The front brake upgrade is 1400.00 with real pin drive. If you have the adapters or bolt on wheels it will be about 1700.00.

No new master cyl needed, the same MASTER CYL IS USED!

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by DanEC

Did Bob indicate if it requires a change in the master cylinder?

Also, I would not be too worried about the single reservoir. Even if a leak develops in the rear system and drains all the fluid out of the reservoir, as long as the front system is tight it will remain in operation. Only if you develop a leak in both master cylinder/line/caliper systems would you lose all brakes. And even then, multiple reservoirs may not help.

A single reservoir is different than a single master cylinder. I have a 66 Corvette with a single piston/circuit master cylinder. With it, a line failure anywhere will leave me totally without brakes (except emergency)

Dan,
Check this out, Bob Putnam just posted to his thread: brake/clutch fluid reservoir
Turns out that reservoir has compartments in it, which separate the two brake systems. That is also why the clutch is in the middle, so in essence, that acts like its own reservoir. So the only flaw I see in this system is the fact that if you lose either your front or rear brake fluid you will definitely have no fluid for your clutch except what is in the clutch master cyl. Do you think that would be enough to actually use the clutch to shift gears. I though I remember reading somewhere that every time you push and release the clutch it back-feeds to the reservoir on the release. I could be totally wrong on this, don't know. I hope I am.
Dave

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

Dan,
Check this out, Bob Putnam just posted to his thread: brake/clutch fluid reservoir
Turns out that reservoir has compartments in it, which separate the two brake systems. That is also why the clutch is in the middle, so in essence, that acts like its own reservoir. So the only flaw I see in this system is the fact that if you lose either your front or rear brake fluid you will definitely have no fluid for your clutch except what is in the clutch master cyl. Do you think that would be enough to actually use the clutch to shift gears. I though I remember reading somewhere that every time you push and release the clutch it back-feeds to the reservoir on the release. I could be totally wrong on this, don't know. I hope I am.
Dave

It sounds like the BMW reservoir has 3 sections in it so it functions the same as having the 3 separate Girling cans. That just reinforces that performance or reliability wise - there isn't any advantage with separate reservoirs. I have the 3 cans just for period appearance. Otherwise - I don't think they are worth the effort.

As far as backfeeding to the reservoir when the pedal is released - I think the answer is kind of, but in a proper functioning and tight system what goes back to the reservoir is virtually nothing if anything. The master cylinders I've worked on have a compensating port that releases any pressure in the system as the pedal is released to ensure the brakes don't stay applied. That means a small shot of fluid could go to the reservoir if the rotors kick back the pads due to runout or something. Or if a caliper piston seal has a slight leak, it also allow the master cylinder to fill from the reservoir to compensate for it.

And now I'm dangerously close to exhausting my understanding of hydraulic systems.

[davids2toys]

Originally Posted by DanEC

It sounds like the BMW reservoir has 3 sections in it so it functions the same as having the 3 separate Girling cans. That just reinforces that performance or reliability wise - there isn't any advantage with separate reservoirs. I have the 3 cans just for period appearance. Otherwise - I don't think they are worth the effort.

As far as backfeeding to the reservoir when the pedal is released - I think the answer is kind of, but in a proper functioning and tight system what goes back to the reservoir is virtually nothing if anything. The master cylinders I've worked on have a compensating port that releases any pressure in the system as the pedal is released to ensure the brakes don't stay applied. That means a small shot of fluid could go to the reservoir if the rotors kick back the pads due to runout or something. Or if a caliper piston seal has a slight leak, it also allow the master cylinder to fill from the reservoir to compensate for it.

And now I'm dangerously close to exhausting my understanding of hydraulic systems.

LOL
Yes, except for the clutch. With your system (3 cans) you could lose all you brake fluid and still have all your clutch fluid.
As far as releasing the pedal., I was talking about the clutch, not the brake. I do understand what you are saying about the brake returning a little fluid.
My question was, do you think that if you lost your clutch fluid because of a brake line leak in the single reservoir system, would you have enough in the clutch master to shift the car for a while? If it was to return some fluid to the reservoir every time you released the pedal, you would be screwed.
Dave

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by davids2toys

LOL
Yes, except for the clutch. With your system (3 cans) you could lose all you brake fluid and still have all your clutch fluid.
As far as releasing the pedal., I was talking about the clutch, not the brake. I do understand what you are saying about the brake returning a little fluid.
My question was, do you think that if you lost your clutch fluid because of a brake line leak in the single reservoir system, would you have enough in the clutch master to shift the car for a while? If it was to return some fluid to the reservoir every time you released the pedal, you would be screwed.
Dave

If I understood Bob correctly, it sounds like the clutch has it's own fluid storage in the BMW reservoir. Without having seen one, what I suspect is that there are two dividers in the bottom half of the reservoir that creates 3 fluid chambers. As long as the fluid level in the reservoir is maintained above the dividers, all the chambers stay full. If the front brakes loose a caliper seal and fluid, the reservoir level would fall to the level of the dividers and the fluid in the front brake chamber would continue to fall until the master cylinder sucks air. But the rear brake chambers and the clutch chamber would still have their fluid chambers full up to the dividers and continue to operate normally and have some fluid reserve. Not sure if this is correct but sounds like the approach.

You should not lose the clutch due to losing one of your brake circuits. You should not lose the brakes due to losing the clutch circuit. All three have some independence and redundancy in terms of reservoir storage if one does develop a leak.