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Old 02-09-2021, 05:55 PM
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Default Bob - which electric fuel pumps does ERA use

Bob,

I am having a 496 built that will have 600hp. My engine builder says I will need a fuel pump that flows about 140 gph. That means an electric pump.

When ERA builds a turn key, which pump do you like to use?

The Aeromotive Phantom in tank units look nice. T style pumps are notoriously loud. In tank would keep noise down.

The Aeromotive has 13 amp draw. Would that work with your 15 amp circuit or should I run a relay from one of the fuses and use the 15 amp circuit to switch it?

Which fuse would you run from?

Just planning and collecting parts for 838.

John
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Old 02-10-2021, 05:12 AM
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At that draw, I would run a separate (fused) relay powered directly from the battery/starter solenoid. It won't be in the ammeter circuit, but that method is more reliable. An in-line switch to the relay would be nice too.

We don't have a standard electric fuel pump, and they are rarely used in our "not turnkey" cars. If one is required, usually the engine builder supplies it with the engine. They are usually mounted behind the left rear wheel or in the trunk (not recommended) like the original Comp cars.
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Old 02-10-2021, 08:37 AM
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I prefer a mechanical pump.

Have you built 600 hp cars that used a good quality mechanical pump without issues?

My engine builder is on the fence and wants to go the route that will guarantee no engine issues.

John
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Old 02-10-2021, 08:52 AM
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I have a Lykins 482 FE that dynoed at 580 HP/650 TQ. Brent supplied an Edelbrock mechanical fuel pump with the engine.

I haven't had any issues at all.
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Old 02-10-2021, 09:51 AM
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I have a 482 built by Barry at Survival and I have had no issues with my Carter M6905. The only fuel-related issue I have had is with the fittings on the Leman's bowl. The ID is very small which restricts the fuel flow. I bought some different fittings and had the ID opened up so hopefully, that will fix the problem. The plumbing after the pump is also critical. I do have two pick-ups in the tank and electric back-up pumps.
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Old 02-10-2021, 11:39 AM
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Thanks guys.

Lykins is building my engine. He is estimating it will be 600-650hp. His line is 600hp needs more fuel than the mechanicals can provide.

It sounds like my HP per cube is right there with RockBit and the extra cubes of a 496 will push it over.

John
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Old 02-10-2021, 01:37 PM
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Holley makes a 110, 130 and +170 mechanical pumps.
Above 110 you would need a carb fuel pressure regulator.

The larger mechanicals will easily feed a NA motor at 650HP.

Last edited by Unique427; 02-10-2021 at 01:50 PM..
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Old 02-10-2021, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unique427 View Post
Holley makes a 110, 130 and +170 mechanical pump.
Maybe for a 350 Chevy, but not for an FE.

The Edelbrock pump is the largest mechanical fuel pump for an FE and it's rated to support "up to 600 hp". RobbMc used to make some bigger mechanical fuel pumps but you had to grind on the pump and also on the engine block to make it fit.

This isn't a constant WOT race engine but I still don't like taking chances with fuel flow with higher horsepower engines. There are several other benefits to an electric pump.
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Old 02-10-2021, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubby View Post
I prefer a mechanical pump.

Have you built 600 hp cars that used a good quality mechanical pump without issues?

My engine builder is on the fence and wants to go the route that will guarantee no engine issues.

John

You are pretty much at the upper end of the flow capacity range (possibly over it) for mechanical fuel pumps, John. One gallon is essentially 3.8L so 140 gph is 532L. The time dimension on all of this is hours so you are looking at 532 LPH with no reserve capacity. Give yourself 15% head room and you are at 610/612 LPH. This number is unattainable with traditional automotive mechanical pumps, you need electric.

My suggestion would be two TI Automotive F90000267 Fuel Pumps. Each one is 420 LPH. This is a link to the pump => F90000267

Th easiest way to mount the pumps is with a pump basket that goes through the top of your fuel tank. If you have a fabricated tank you will need to weld a flange to the top of the tank. If you are repurposing an gem tank you can buy a pump hat that is designed for your tank (very likely). Here is a link to a dual pump hat for an 03/04 Cobra tank using two TI automotive pumps, click here => Fuel Pump Hat

Fore Innovations has been making fuel system components for supercharged Ford OEM vehicles since the 03/03 Cobra's. I use one of their triple pump hats for my engine with three 255 lph FGT pumps only because ten years ago these bigger pumps available today were not available then.

Almost forgot you will need to run a fuel pressure regulator to bring the fuel pressure down to 6 or 7 psi for the carbs(s). The fuel pump hat has a return port for the fuel the pressure regulator bleeds off through the return line to hit your target 6 or 7 psi number.

The register on the top of the fuel tank is just a simple ring with a bolt circle to match the pump hat and a recess for the OEM fuel tank gasket. BTW these fuel pump hats use OEM Ford fuel level sensors. In the FWIW bucket Fore also has all the plumbing hardware to simplify the job. His prices are very competitive in the US. I am not sure about down under pricing so you might be able to get some of the hardware less expensively by sourcing locally. It is worth checking around.


Ed
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Last edited by eschaider; 02-10-2021 at 04:33 PM.. Reason: Spelling & Grammar
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Old 02-10-2021, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubby View Post
Thanks guys.

Lykins is building my engine. He is estimating it will be 600-650hp. His line is 600hp needs more fuel than the mechanicals can provide.

It sounds like my HP per cube is right there with RockBit and the extra cubes of a 496 will push it over.

John

Brent is right, John.


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Old 02-10-2021, 05:39 PM
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I am down to two electric pumps.

The easiest to install is the Aeromotive SS 11203. It is 140gph and only draws 5 amps. So the standard ERA wiring and plumbing should work.

The Aeormotive Phantom is a basket type that goes in the tank and supports 750hp (flow rate not given). It would require more effort to wire it as it draws 13 amps and would need a relay wired in.

Not a big cost difference and both can be ran without a return line.

I will stew on this and decide later. The noise level on the first one is the hold back.

John
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Old 02-10-2021, 06:16 PM
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Grubby, I'm pretty doubtful that the sound of an electric fuel pump will be heard over your 600 HP engine.
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Old 02-11-2021, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubby View Post
I am down to two electric pumps.

The easiest to install is the Aeromotive SS 11203. It is 140gph and only draws 5 amps. So the standard ERA wiring and plumbing should work.

The Aeormotive Phantom is a basket type that goes in the tank and supports 750hp (flow rate not given). It would require more effort to wire it as it draws 13 amps and would need a relay wired in.

Not a big cost difference and both can be ran without a return line.

I will stew on this and decide later. The noise level on the first one is the hold back.

John

John,

The Aeromotive Street/Strip 11203SS Fuel Pump is rated at 150 gph (568 lph) at zero head and carries a $229 price tag at Summit.

The Aeromotive Phantom Direct-Fit Fuel Pump #18313 is rated at 180 gph (680 lph) at zero head and carries a $643 price tag at Summit.

At 150 lph, The 11203SS pump is inadequate for the fuel system you need to build. Its max flow capacity is right at your max demand threshold with no head room whatsoever. Additionally these pump flow ratings are measured at zero head. As soon as the pump begins to pump against head, its performance noses over.

Of those two pumps the pump that would meet your engine's fuel demands is the Phantom Direct.

One of the benefits to the Fore approach is they are OEM EFI pumps that are designed to run full on all the time for the life of a Detroit daily driver. None of the aftermarket pumps are designed to do that, which means the OEM pumps will not only have a longer life but likely perform better.

The Fore hat with two of the TI pumps is a marginally more expensive proposition at $675 but it is a forever fuel system. Using EFI fuel pumps with a carb means also using a Fuel Pressure Regulator to bring the fuel pressure down to the 6-7 psi that carbs require. That regulator adds about $200 to the system cost to get a regulator that will bring the fuel pressure down to 6-7 psi.

The EFI pump path is definitely a more expensive path. The more cost effective, direct path is Aeromotive's Phantom Direct package.


Ed
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Old 02-11-2021, 04:41 AM
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Bob -

Is the standard ERA fuel line 3/8? Is there an option to add 1/2” hard line?

I am pretty sure 758 had ERA installed 1/2” fuel line.

Is the ERA fuel tank pick up and sender OEM to something? There are some electric fuel pumps to go in several 60’s fuel tanks. It could make for a really clean pump install.

John

Last edited by Grubby; 02-11-2021 at 04:53 AM.. Reason: Added question
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Old 02-11-2021, 05:59 AM
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John,

Our standard lines are 3/8". Warn Peter if you want something special. We have to make some mods early on.
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Old 02-11-2021, 06:58 AM
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John, I would do a 1/2" (-8 AN) supply line from the tank/pump to the regulator.
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Old 02-11-2021, 07:31 AM
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Bob and Brent -

I just sent Peter a note to make the change.

John
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Old 02-11-2021, 04:12 PM
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John,

Have a look at the Holley 12-129.

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...e/parts/12-129

I used the identical pump (but high pressure for fuel injection) in 828. Peter is aware of the minor mods needed to the trunk sheet metal to allow room for the pump to fit in the top of the tank. 255 LPH with a 10.4 amp draw.

Bobby
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Old 02-11-2021, 05:16 PM
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Bobby,

That looks just like the Aeromotive in-tank unit.

Are you saying it won't clear the trunk floor without some modification to the aluminum? Did you wire it like Bob indicated above?

Did you mount it on the Left side of the tank just past the trap door?

What is your engine setup? Are you happy with the unit?

John
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Old 02-11-2021, 05:34 PM
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Are you saying it won't clear the trunk floor without some modification to the aluminum?

There's about 1/4" between the tank and trunk floor, the exposed part of the pump is close to 3/4", so they have to modify the front of the trunk floor.

Did you wire it like Bob indicated above?

I'm using the ERA supplied wiring with no issue.

Did you mount it on the Left side of the tank just past the trap door?

It's mounted at the very front in the center.

What is your engine setup? Are you happy with the unit?

445 FE with BBM heads, spec'ed by Brent, probably making a little north of 500 hp. Love it, but would be happier if it didn't leak oil. I blame the dumbass who assembled it.

Bobby
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