Toploader Transmission use

DanEC · #1 (**permalink**) 08-05-2009, 04:31 PM

I'm tracking a couple leads down on some Toploader transmissions in preparation for my car. I've been concentrating on a small shaft, wide ratio transmission as ERA recommends. I like a wide ratio transmission just for the ease of driving around town. Are these things really plenty beefy enough behind a moderate 428 motor (400 flywheel HP range)?

I might have a lead on a close ratio toploader but then I would probably need to step up to a 3.54 rear from the 3.31.

I know there will be suggestions to go with a 5 or 6 speed but I'm old school. After 39 years of 4 speeds the shift pattern is engrained in my senses.

Thanks

Dan

Fordzilla · #2 (**permalink**) 08-05-2009, 04:48 PM

I'm a Toploader guy. I recommend the Big Input/ Big Output shafts. It will stand all the abuse you can put through it.

ERA Chas · #3 (**permalink**) 08-05-2009, 04:58 PM

You will have no problem as 400HP is only slightly more than a good 390 in the day, which the small input ran behind. You can't hurt it.
Mine was blueprinted by Brian Higgins at S&K and has lived since 1991 behind 550HP and run 11's.

ZOERA-SC7XX · #4 (**permalink**) 08-05-2009, 06:22 PM

I use a Galaxie toploader behind my 428 FE, and I love it. Although I upgraded to a large input shaft, I see the small input shaft being fine with street driving. Just don't dump the clutch at 5K.

Bobcat · #5 (**permalink**) 08-05-2009, 06:49 PM

I`ve had a close ratio toploader in my 427 Galaxie for the past 10 years . 450 hp and about 450 ft lbs of torque in a 4100 lb car and no problems .... other than trying to stop more than once !

DanEC · #6 (**permalink**) 08-05-2009, 07:01 PM

It sounds like the small input shaft trans has a longer pilot bearing tip than the large input shaft transmission. Is that a major problem in adapting the WR, small input trans to a 428? I would think it's just a matter of selecting the right parts since the WR, small input shaft trans came with 390 FEs??????

Also, is the shortest tailshaft the only practical option on an ERA? The mid-length and long-length tailshafts just won't work?

thanks

tkb289 · #7 (**permalink**) 08-05-2009, 08:20 PM

My understanding from reading the ERA FIA manual, is that they recommend the shortest tail shaft so that the longest drive shaft can be used. Not sure what that buys you ... maybe better rear suspension performance ?

Excaliber · #8 (**permalink**) 08-05-2009, 08:41 PM

Big in, Big out, 3:31 behind a close ratio with a LONG tail shaft and short, SHORT drive shaft. Well over 400 horse, trans is bullet proof. ERA, with a side oiler and dual fours.

Don't like:
The high first gear ratio on occasion. Most of the time it's OK because mostly Hawaii is flat ground. Pulling into a steep uphill parking ramp from a level street requires a bit of slipping the clutch (or slipping the tires, your call).

So to overcome the high first gear your thinking a lower rear end ratio? Yeah that would work but you will NOT be happy the high rpm's at cruise speed! Wide or close, the 4th gear is still "direct drive". 70-75 mph will have your motor buzzing right up there with a 3:54. I wouldn't go with less than 3:31, even taller, with a direct drive high gear.

I don't think it's that big of a deal running short, medium or long tail shaft, myself. I suppose the theory is valid, whatever it is. The Jaguar pumpkin just sits there, doesn't move so it's not like the drive shaft see's any up and down or side to side movement to speak of. There is a slight offset from the front U joint to the rear U joint which IS REQUIRED. That keeps the U joint bearings moving in their little cups and keeps them well lubricated that way. You DON'T want a "perfect alignment" with a drive shaft.

Oh, don't forget to trim the bottom of the bell housing off. If you don't it WILL catch on a speed bump and that WILL eventually break your trans mount, which throws more angle into your drive shaft. In such a case a longer drive shaft would be better than a short one, I guess. I broke my trans mount and other than extreme clutch chatter (which was my first clue) in first gear, no problem with the drive shaft.

My drive shaft/rear end has a total of about 18,000 miles on it since the car was built in 1986. I've put about 10,000 of the total on it myself.

What I really like is how cool the close ratio is on the freeway or during acelleration runs! I can drop into 2nd gear at about 55 mph and just take off like a rocket. It's great hearing that motor STAY up there in the power band as you go through the gears.

I did recently replace the LEATHER pinion seal on the rear end, started leaking and throwing oil, yuck what a mess. The pinon NUT was FINGER LOOSE, which is what I suspect led to the failed seal? I replaced it, as per ERA's web site, with a modern rubber lip seal. It was hell getting the 80wt oil back in that stinkin' pumpkin hole.

Rick Parker · #9 (**permalink**) 08-06-2009, 12:18 AM

Short tailshaft reduces the U-Joint angles.

Fordzilla · #10 (**permalink**) 08-06-2009, 05:18 AM

I run a Big In/Big Out Toploader. I had it built with a lower first gear (the Wide Ratio 1st- I think it's 2:80) & the rest of the gears are the close ratio.

cscobra · #11 (**permalink**) 08-06-2009, 01:02 PM

Your plan (moderate 428, WR, small in and small out, 3.31 rear) should work just fine. I'd go with ERA's recommendations regarding tailshaft and driveshaft lengths--they've had many years of experience to perfect these designs and they know what works. Your proposed combination should be great for reliability and durability, and you'll still have more power than you'll ever consistently use for the street.

By the way, my rebuilt toploader came from GT Performance Ford in Penn Yan, NY. (GT in this case stands for Gary Tyler). I learned about GTPF from ERA.

Fordzilla · #12 (**permalink**) 08-06-2009, 01:07 PM

My Toploader also came from Gary Tyler. (He's a friend of mine). Like I said, You can have a custom lower first gear if you want. Gary is Top Notch & can build you whatever you want. My Toploader is bullet proof but it has to be. (542 FE with an 8-71 blower).

ZOERA-SC7XX · #13 (**permalink**) 08-06-2009, 04:41 PM

My TL has the long tailshaft, and I see no disadvantage with the short driveshaft. The angle difference is negligible, and I prefer the straight shifter location. Bob from ERA had said there were a few done with this trans...strictly up to the customer.
The Sunbeam Tiger had the medium length (Fairlane) tailshaft without any problems. The difference is only four inches.

Anthony · #14 (**permalink**) 08-06-2009, 06:52 PM

If you're going to run a WR toploader behind a well mannered BB, then I'd run 3.07 rear or something like that.

If you get a small in/out tranny, if its from a 390 stang/cougar, then the input pilot bearing snout is fine, if its from a sb, then you'll have to cut some off. I modified one already in the tranny by first taping shut the opening at the front of the front bearing cap. Then got a die grinder with a cut-off wheel, and sliced off 5/8" or something like that, then with a disc grinder, tapered the edges alittle.

If you get a small in/out tranny, you can buy a WR big input gear and front bearing retainer from david kee, and make a big in WR tranny.

DanEC · #15 (**permalink**) 08-06-2009, 06:58 PM

I hate the idea of taking a cut off wheel to a transmission but after thinking about it I think that is manageable if I need to.

Thanks

Dan

Anthony · #16 (**permalink**) 08-06-2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanEC

I hate the idea of taking a cut off wheel to a transmission but after thinking about it I think that is manageable if I need to.

Thanks

Dan

If your input shaft is too long, and pushes up against the back of the crank, then you'll ruin your tranny and engine thrust bearing. Neither a good thing.