Upcoming FE build: plan coming together

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

"It seats two, but it's built for one."

RodKnock, have you checked your rev limiter settings yet?

A better question is "Have you opened the garage door lately?"

I don't think the rev limiter is the issue, but I don't want to derail someone else's thread.

Regarding resale value, as Gunner said, it shouldn't be the main objective in a build, but you have to take it into consideration since the majority of Cobras will be sold by their 1st owner.

I pray that never happens to me, unless I'm upgrading to a new Kirkham.

[patrickt]

1. Yes, took her out yesterday, for probably the last ride of the year, after the going started to get a little rough on one of the other threads.

2. Start a new thread and update the rev limiter issue.

3. I guess I agree with that.

4. Doubtful, you already have the perfect car.

[Gunner]

I'm not convinced that 428 blocks are in that range. CJs, maybe. But yer average 68 Galaxie sedan motor, .020-.030 over and with no faults? Nah. Maybe $1k for a very good example. If you have to have a PI or CJ or SCJ... well, you're going to pay for it. Just as if a 427 top-oiler isn't good enough, you're going to sell another car to pay for a good SO block.

I'll concede that good 390 blocks are somewhere between $0 and maybe $300. So the difference is somewhere between $500 and maybe-maybe $1,000... which, I will maintain, will show up come second-buyer time.

[RodKnock]

Well, hypothetically speaking, if you assume the "two-roll bar" issue doesn't exist, I would more than likely pay, as my premium over a 390, the cost to locate, purchase and build a 428, less any adjustments for mileage, or other detractions such as replacing any "disco" parts. As I said, all other things being equal, like two ERA's built exactly the same, the 428 would have a premium of a couple or few thousand FOR ME.

However, if the ERA with a 390 were discounted $-wise to a point relative to the 428, then I would buy the ERA with the 390.

Edit: As Gunner said, CJ's, PI's and SCJ's add more value.

[patrickt]

Well, I'm glad I went with a 428 then. Now you know you can get the same peformance from a nice 428 block that you can from a nice 427SO block (if you don't know that, take my word for it, you can). Would you rather have a 427SO over a 428 that has better performance and street manners? In other words, even if the 428 is better, would you still opt for the SO, assuming the SO is still a very nice engine?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Would you rather have a 427SO over a 428 that has better performance and street manners? In other words, even if the 428 is better, would you still opt for the SO, assuming the SO is still a very nice engine?

Well, my CSX block is not a sideoiler, as you know, so having a sideoiler wasn't the be-all end-all for me, BUT yes, I think the preponderance of Cobra AND FE buyers would prefer the sideoiler. Having said that, I'm not sure what you mean by better in terms of a 428 over a SO. Does the 428 have Webers? Does the 428 have Edelbrock aluminum heads? Does the 428 have a stroker kit and not the SO? Does the 428 have an Aviaid pan and not the SO? There are many variables, but all things being equal, the SO is more valuable and hits the emotional button more for me over the 428. As probably a lot of people.

How much in terms of value is a little tougher since there are the early solid lifter type, the later hydraulic lifter type and I'm not sure which I would prefer, though I think you can convert the soild lifter to a hydraulic lifter, but again, I'm just an FE novice.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

There are many variables, but all things being equal, the SO is more valuable and hits the emotional button more for me over the 428. As probably a lot of people.

The issue is "at what point does the emotional button take a back seat to either performance or cost?" SO blocks are cool, but they will not get you any more performance than a 428 block. Plus, 428 blocks are no less "original" than SO blocks. The oiling difference has been solved for years, so that's not a big deal. It's purely an "emotional thing." You really can't even see the difference in the two blocks (unless you put the car on a lift). The same is true of the 390 v. 428 debate, with the caveat that 390 engines were never original, but that's balanced off by the fact that you can't tell the difference even when they're on a lift!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The issue is "at what point does the emotional button take a back seat to either performance or cost?"

I may be your atypical buyer, so don't use me as the norm. At some point, the scales would tip back to the 428 versus a 427 for me, but it would take a whole lot of some heavy substance to push that figurative scale back in favor of the 428.

I'm not saying anything outside of the FE norm: 4) 352, 3) 390, 2) 428, and then 1) 427. No news there.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

How much in terms of value is a little tougher since there are the early solid lifter type, the later hydraulic lifter type and I'm not sure which I would prefer, though I think you can convert the soild lifter to a hydraulic lifter, but again, I'm just an FE novice.

So as not to misslead anyone:

The solid lifter blocks have no provision to pump oil to the lifters. They oil by splash only. You cannot put hydraulic lifters in a solid lifter block, however you can go the other way.

[RodKnock]

Let's just say my engine was very expensive, but I originally started the engine selection process for my car with a used 428 or 427 block in mind. In fact, I almost bought a '64 427 High Rise engine, but as I mentioned before, for weight reduction, starting fresh with a new parts, etc., etc., I made my choice(s).

I still have my eye on a Cammer though, one of these days.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

I still have my eye on a Cammer though, one of these days.

The prices on cammers are coming down as parts get more available. I have no doubt that one day you'll have a cammer in that car.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The prices on cammers are coming down as parts get more available. I have no doubt that one day you'll have a cammer in that car.

Getting past the "Who's Gonna Build It?" question and the "What the heck did you do to my footboxes, steering linkage and headers?" question, I'll have to start with another $5,000 aluminum SO block (Pond), and the $5,000/pair Bill Coon heads, and you've not even touched the middle and top section of the engine (crank, pistons, rods, cams, intake, induction, cover, pan, blah, blah, blah), "one of these days" may turn into "never."

[patrickt]

The cammer will cost roughly the same as a Camry.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

The cammer will cost roughly the same as a Camry.

You are correct sir.

Speaking of choice, the OP is thinking of putting Webers on his potential 390, which brings me to agreeing with an earlier post by Gunner maybe. If it were me, and I do realize it's not me, then I would take that $4,000 bill for the Webers (Rokndad just spent about that with all the sundries) and trade for a $4,000-$4,500 Pond or Genesis block. But that's me.

[olddog]

Even Ford took 390 blocks and bored them and sold them as 428 replacement blocks.

So, I have to ask: one engine is a block that started out as 390 that has been bored (with plenty of wall thickness - no overheating problems) and now has 428 pistons and crank in it. It is a true 428 now. Another engine always was and still is a 428. Other than the origin of the blocks they are identical. Is there any difference in value?

[Gunner]

Originally Posted by olddog

Even Ford took 390 blocks and bored them and sold them as 428 replacement blocks.

So, I have to ask: one engine is a block that started out as 390 that has been bored (with plenty of wall thickness - no overheating problems) and now has 428 pistons and crank in it. It is a true 428 now. Another engine always was and still is a 428. Other than the origin of the blocks they are identical. Is there any difference in value?

The problem being that us FE fanatics take 428 blocks and bore them out even larger...

A 428ci "428" would be a dead giveaway in this crowd.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by olddog

Other than the origin of the blocks they are identical. Is there any difference in value?

Well, that's an individual choice and I'm on the record stating that the 428 block has more value to me than a 390. If there were no difference in value between the two, then 428's would be priced equally with the 390.

El, I was going to drive my car for 2,000-5,000 miles and then make a decision on the Webers. Right now, I'm enjoying the simplicity of the carb and turkey pan. That was Rokndad's approach and it seems sound to me.

[Barry_R]

Don't want to upset anyone. But Ford did not turn 390s into 428s for service. You occasionally find a 391 truck block that'll go to the 428 bore, but they are not the norm by a long shot. Some service blocks were apparently 391/428 castings that could be machined as needed - but they had 391 features like the big distributor hole and the compressor oil return passage. Most .080 over 390s are ebay specials that'll split a cylinder wall somewhere down the road. Could last hours, weeks, or years - no guarantee.

The 428 has a different water jacket core and normally has the numbers "428" cast into the floor of the jacket either below the center freeze plug or visible looking straight down through the front and/or rear coolant opening on the deck. Anybody buying one that knows their stuff also knows this and the price will reflect that inspection. The 428blocks are in high demand for the Mustang market.

A 427 will outpower a similarly equipped and sized 428 or 390 pretty much all the time. The bigger bore equals better breathing. No question about it. If I am building a Cobra for myself its gonna be either a max effort 427+ racer type of deal or a 390 based sunny day cruiser. I think the 428 is a great middle ground selection - but I am not much of a "middle ground" guy

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

A 427 will outpower a similarly equipped and sized 428 or 390 pretty much all the time. The bigger bore equals better breathing. No question about it. If I am building a Cobra for myself its gonna be either a max effort 427+ racer type of deal or a 390 based sunny day cruiser. I think the 428 is a great middle ground selection - but I am not much of a "middle ground" guy

Barry, I know you can get 550HP out of 428 block, you've done it before. That seems to be right around the "usable limit" of HP for most Cobras. Can you get that out of a 390 block and have it last, say, 25,000 miles before it needs refreshing?

[olddog]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

Don't want to upset anyone. But Ford did not turn 390s into 428s for service. You occasionally find a 391 truck block that'll go to the 428 bore, but they are not the norm by a long shot. Some service blocks were apparently 391/428 castings that could be machined as needed - but they had 391 features like the big distributor hole and the compressor oil return passage. Most .080 over 390s are ebay specials that'll split a cylinder wall somewhere down the road. Could last hours, weeks, or years - no guarantee.

I'm not upset and respect your knowledge. My source for my statement was "Ford Performance" by Pat Ganahl page 50.

"All replacement 428 blocks sold by Ford after '72 were bored-out 391 truck blocks." He then goes on to describe the differences in the truck block. The previous sentence stated that some 390 blocks can be bored to 4.13 (428) if sonic checked.

My memory is not what it once was. I remembered it as the 390, but he stated 391. I know they are not the same, but I kind of lump them into the same catagory.

I think you were saying some of the same things. Do you agree with the quote from the book?

Jim Dove's web site also states some 390 blocks can be bore to a 428, and he has a chart on the allen wrench test between the cylinders through the freeze plugs, as a quick way to rule a block as worthy of sonic testing.

A couple years ago the Ohio Cobra Club's raffle car for the London show had a 390 block bored to 428. At least that is what I remember. I believe this is practiced and have read several sources saying it is ok if there is enough wall thinkness. All sources caution that most 390 blocks do not have enough meat, but some do. Just because something is done by many, it doesn't mean it is the right thing to do. So I am not argueing it is right. I just want to be clear when I ask "Is it your opinion that even if there is enough meat, there is a higher risk of failure?"