Brad Penn Oil and the ZDDP Debate

[Excaliber]

It's a natural progression for a thread, you discuss the topic and then move on toward things like, "So, how you been? How are the kids? What you been up to lately?" Like any good conversation usually goes in time.

[madmaxx]

This has been a fantastic thread which caused me to learn what all the little symbols on the oil can mean and how they hurt engine oil performance!!!

[ENTDOC]

one of the better articles on the subject

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

[Excaliber]

As many of us, myself included, like Shell Rotella, be advised that oil is an ever changing product. What was good yesterday (or last year) may not be good this year!!!

Rotella as an example. It used to carry a CI-4 rating, now it's CJ-4 "and meets the requirements of CI-4 plus." Meeting the requirements is not good enough, it aint CI-4, period. It's been reformulated to reduce particulate matter in diesel trucks, they did that by a significant reduction in the ZDDP levels. Which is the primary reason I use an additive like STP.

If you can find Rotella with a CI-4 or CI-4 plus rating, NOT CJ-4, it's the good stuff. However, it is getting difficult to find any CI-4 rated oil these days.

The biggest issue I have with Brad Penn oil is the hassle of having to order it online. I want an oil that is readily available at most local sources. Walmart Super Tech Universal oil, by the way, aint a bad call. Among the top performers is NAPA Universal Fleet Plus. While exotic oils like Redline are good, I'm watching the dollar per gallon cost as well as I use a LOT of oil for my "fleet". I like ONE brand, easy to get, at a decent price over "exoctic" oils.

If your just looking to service your Cobra only you can afford to be a little more picky, wait for an online order, pay a little more. I'm going to look into NAPA as Rotella CI-4 is getting impossible to find.

3) It cast a healthy "specter of doubt" over the efficacy of ZDDP supplements.

Well for me it didn't, there's a time and place to use an additive!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

The biggest issue I have with Brad Penn oil is the hassle of having to order it online.

Actually, it feels like the opposite to me. Finding it online makes it much easier to get. Ordering online takes about 2 minutes and then a package comes to your door in about 3-5 days. Order a few cases and your set for a long time.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Actually, it feels like the opposite to me. Finding it online makes it much easier to get. Ordering online takes about 2 minutes and then a package comes to your door in about 3-5 days. Order a few cases and your set for a long time.

Yep, I would rather buy stuff on line that spend 20 minutes running to the auto store to get it. BTW, how much "goodwill" did this thread buy me? I'm mulling over some gratuitous attack on SPF, BDR, and FFR. You know, criticize them all simultaneously to create a BFD, if you will....

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Yep, I would rather buy stuff on line that spend 20 minutes running to the auto store to get it. BTW, how much "goodwill" did this thread buy me? I'm mulling over some gratuitous attack on SPF, BDR, and FFR. You know, criticize them all simultaneously to create a BFD, if you will....

Between this thread and the LED tail light thread, you're probably set for a few bomb shells. I'm surprised you didn't hop into that interior thread where it almost turned into an FFR versus BDR thread.

[Bob In Ct]

I'm going back to Mobil1 5W-30 (from Redline 5W-30) and I'm going to add 8 ounces of the Redline ZDDP additive to the 9+ quarts I pour in. This will give me about 1,400 PPM Phosphorous and about 1,600 PPM Zinc.

Bob

[CobraEd]

yep, thats what I do. it is the best of all worlds.


.

[Excaliber]

The NAPA oil (high in ZDDP) or Rotella, as well as a number of other ZDDP bearing oils, cost about half of what Brad Penn goes for. The cost is a factor when your using a LOT of oil. Because of the limited number of miles any of my vehicles actually see I generally change it based on "time" rather than miles, but that depends on use. Often that becomes a marathon fleet oil changing time, a time I don't generally look forward too.

$10 a gallon compared to about $20 a gallon, in round numbers. I add two bottles of STP at about $2.50-$3.00 a bottle (say $6.00 total). I buy oil in the gallon or more jugs at a time. The truck and the Cobra will consume over 4 gallons alone, not to mention the other vehicles around the place. All of them get the same oil and a shot of STP according to their need.

I've been using STP since high school, seems to work, who knows for sure? I never did put much faith in "testimonials" (mine or yours ) as I prefer hard numbers. But heck even "studies" and "polls" remain suspect. Good write up on Brad Penn, even though it is from a potentially biased source, I have a hunch it's the "good stuff", but a bit pricey.

[Excaliber]

...did I mention all the dual roll bar cars had a perky butt?

Not thats there's anything wrong with that...

[undy]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

...did I mention all the dual roll bar cars had a perky butt?


Not thats there's anything wrong with that...

Back to the ZDDP discussion...

Speaking about roll bars, with a lill' trick plumbing those roll bars would make a killer "high ZDDP" oil cooler too, double pass...

[Bob In Ct]

If the container has the "Starburst" symbol, the oil has no more than 800 PPM ZDDP.

Bob

[speed220mph]

I didn't read all of the responses, so forgive me for repeating what may have been said.

I've been using Brad Penn in place of Joe Gibbs oil for a couple of years from breaking in engines on the dyno and using it on the street and track in my three flat-tappet cam engines, a stroked 302, built HP289 and a 427 side oiler. For a backup, I've ZDDP additive from ZDDP Plus Central in other premium oils. Here's their web site: http://zddppluscentral.com/home.

It's improtant to note that the most critical time with a flat-tappet engine is during break-in. I know of many engines that have wiped out their cams during this intial running period, or break-in and the first 500 miles. I've heard it said that you can "get by" without the correct amount of ZDDP in the engine oil once fully broken in, but I don't put this off to chance considering the consequences.

[madmaxx]

if you like to use zddp additive, use the redline additive. One bottle is good for two oil 8 quart oil changes $13.95, summit and Jegs sale so if you are ordering other stuff you just pay one shipping and handleing fee.

[SantaFe66]

Here's the content of ZDDP and Phos. in Amsoil:

AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils Phosphorus Zinc Level
Level (ppm) (ppm)
AMO 10W-40 Synthetic
Premium Protection Motor Oil 1265 1378

ARO 20W-50 Synthetic
Premium Protection Motor Oil 1266 1379

HDD Series 3000 Synthetic
5W-30 Heavy Duty Diesel Oil 1266 1379

AME 15W-40 Synthetic Heavy
Duty Diesel and Marine Motor Oil 1267 1377


AMSOIL Synthetic Racing Oils Phosphorus Zinc Level
Level (ppm) (ppm)
RD20 Dominator Synthetic
Racing Oil 5W-20 1424 1575

RD30 Dominator Synthetic
Racing Oil 10W-30 1424 1575

RD50 Dominator Synthetic

Racing Oil 15W-50 1424 1575
AHR SAE 60 Synthetic Super

Heavy Weight Racing Oil 1265

How does that compare to the oils mentioned earlier in this thread?

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by SantaFe66

How does that compare to the oils mentioned earlier in this thread?

All of those oils are just fine for our cars including solid, flat tappet cams. Once you get over around 1200ppm it's no longer a case of protection, in and of itself, but rather how long that protection will last (because the additives are consumed). We all change our oil out long before the additives are used up, so that's not really a big deal. But to answer your question, the opening post in this thread lists Brad Penn as coming in at 1500ppm, but that doesn't mean it protects better. It's like vitamins, once you have enough, you have enough; taking more doesn't help you (and sometimes can hurt). And yes, there is a point of diminishing return for ZDDP as well. I have an SAE article where tests done on solid flat tappet cams and ZDDP back in the 1970's showed that once you crested about 1900ppm wear began to increase.

[madmaxx]

Patrickt is dead on, in fact over 1900 ppm from what I read causes bearing corrosion issues. Does anyone know the rate of consumption, 100 ppm every xxxx miles.

Originally Posted by patrickt

All of those oils are just fine for our cars including solid, flat tappet cams. Once you get over around 1200ppm it's no longer a case of protection, in and of itself, but rather how long that protection will last (because the additives are consumed). We all change our oil out long before the additives are used up, so that's not really a big deal. But to answer your question, the opening post in this thread lists Brad Penn as coming in at 1500ppm, but that doesn't mean it protects better. It's like vitamins, once you have enough, you have enough; taking more doesn't help you (and sometimes can hurt). And yes, there is a point of diminishing return for ZDDP as well. I have an SAE article where tests done on solid flat tappet cams and ZDDP back in the 1970's showed that once you crested about 1900ppm wear began to increase.

[ERA Chas]

Nighty-night. You've got another busy day in traffic court tomorrow...

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Nighty-night. You've got another busy day in traffic court tomorrow...

Man, I love you guys...you know, in a "bro-mance" kinda way.