427 FE vs 351w, advantages?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Avmaviator

Overall (I know this question is totally on a personal preference level) which engine is more fun to drive? Torque more fun to drive then revs? I've never driven a cobra, and most of my racing/driving has been high rpm revving engines, so I'm new to large amount of torque (new is good).

Thanks for your responses

Arno

The hardest choice has been made already, which is "Which Cobra manufacturer/company?"

I think you'll find that almost anything in a Cobra is fun to drive. Regardless of the engine you install, 302W-based, 351W-based, FE, or even a 460-based (385 series) engine, which we haven't discussed, you'll have a lot of fun.

Think about your budget, resale, if you care about, and do what makes you feel happy.

[rodneym]

Avmaviator,
When you build your 'perfect beast', are you going to give her 32A's or 34DD's?
You know what to do.

[601HP]

For the car you've chosen:

If you install a non-FE engine now, somewhere down the road you'll probably wish your original choice had been the FE.

David

[HI Cobra]

The Kirkham 427 S/C with the SO 427 is like bread and butter. Can't beat the
combo and you won't regret the choice if you ever have to sell. JMHO

[CobraEd]

The Windsor 427 will have the same torque as the FE given that it is the exact same displacement, but the pistons/rods/crank will weigh significantly less than an FE and allow it to rev and build HP much faster as a result of the reduced rotational and reciprocating mass.


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[Jerry Clayton]

while everyone is talking about strokers---back in the day, the Nascar guys destroked them to kill off bottom end and add to the top.

Get ahold of Bob Brown, he's a WCCC member and has a stock strke 428 pi with Edelbrock heads ported at KCraft that we did 2 years ago---Everybody is amazed at the low end docility and yet the power that comes on with just a moderate push on the pedal.

We also built a stroked 427/482 for a gennie Shelby 500gt 68 mustang and that guy ended up putting a smaller carb on it to tame it some---seems those old 14 inch tires on those kelsey hays wheels would dissappear quicker than a tank of gas

Call Corey at 630-532-4052 and he can tell you about there details---this morning he's out at Nickey Chev doing one of those new Camaros, probably back around noon.

[Excaliber]

destroking was more common back in the day. The GM 302, what could be called a destroked 327 (a bit miss leading but you see the point) is a good example of that thinking. Of course there were other reasons for a 5 liter block back then.

The modern thinking is a long stroke and small bore, like the GM 305, totally different than it's brother the 302.

The principle behind it remains very valid indeed. BIG bore, short stroke, builds rpm faster and runs higher rpm with less risk of failure. A classic "recipe" used by many many race engine type designs for decades. Still hold true today.

[Jerry Clayton]

would you like to point out what the weights of the components are that are so much less weight????

[CobraEd]

I had that info years ago, but don't have it anymore. But just as an example, I think an FE crank is about 75lbs and a Windsor crank is about 50 lbs. THIS IS NOT EXACT but close. Maybe others have the actual weights. The rods and pistons are also noticably heavier.


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[elmariachi]

Scat's catalogue says the FE 9000 crank is 64 lbs and 351W is 56 lbs. FE flat-top pistons are maybe 100 grams heavier? Rods can't be much either. Just doesn't seem like a very big difference, certainly not 25+ pounds.

[RICK LAKE]

Nice one Jim. Here we go with the motor debate again. It's what you favor in a cobra. There are a couple of crazy cobras oout there with V6 motor that will tear up most V8. Look up justa6, Pete will explain it.
Motors are what you can afford to blowup. Alot depends on what the car is going to be used for. A small block on most tracks will walk away from a BB FE motored car. Problem is traction and torque. Small block can make less torque in the lower end and match HP on the top end. REV limits are higher with a small block. Taking a windsor stroker to 7,500 or 7,800 rpms is alot easier than a FE.
If you are going racing, more and better speed parts for stroker windsor or even a cleveland motor than FE one. A tunnel port or cammer may be the exception to this rule. FE bottom end is heavy. rods are from 700 grams to over 1,000 with a poor bearing that is small and takes a heavy load. windsor rods are 75-200 grams lighter alone. cranks about 15-30 lbs different in weight. Blocks if iron are about 75 pounds different. The stroker kits for FE motors are now running BBC rods with better oiling and wider rod bearings. Down the road we may get away with 2.0" small block SC rods in FE motors. Some motors are running Honda rods at 1.88" and living well.
If this car is going to live on the street either motor is fine. Have seen a weslake-gurney headed small block with webers that is just super and runs great. For the big boys, Tunnelport, high riser, and the biggie, Cammer heads in a cobra are just super to look at. power wise about 635-640 for dual quad cammer. price tag about 38-45K. if money is no object, cammer will give you the best of both worlds. Sorry 429/460 motors even out in the 550 range IMO dont belong in cobras. That's just me. I have seen Hemi's, turbo V6 gm motors, SBC,BBC, even a Viper motor( Double Vemon ). You want power, this car bent wheel bars at Gate way and still ran in the 10's.
It's all about choice. Will tell you that if I was to do it over from a racing point of view, a stroker 396-408 would be my choice. The aftermarket block a 427- 454 windsor with cleveland heads. This about 1/3 the cost of an FE. If crazy, put a couple of turbos on an SB motor. 9.0 second and can't touch this. Remember big the motor, more weight to spin. More maintainance to do also and cost to repair is higher for an FE. Who's next??? Rick L. Ps the most important thing is to MATCH the parts for the motor to get max power and durability out of it. more power, less life of motor.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

would you like to point out what the weights of the components are that are so much less weight????

Even with my old iron FE block, with the aluminum heads, intake, water pump, flywheel, and a couple of others I'm within 50 lbs. of an original all stock SBF, if memory serves....

[Jerry Clayton]

well, you can't be using terms light about and this is not exact---

The 4 inch Windsor cranks are out of stock so it'll be a bit before I can weigh one but I'll get some actual weights for you---there probably isn't 5 lbs differance and I wouldn't bet on which one is totally lighter--and don't forget that the windsor will have the added weight of the external balance weight on the front dampner and flywheel .

[CobraEd]

Read third paragraph:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...ank/index.html


It is NOT about total engine weight in terms of a nose heavy car which has been discussed countless times here. It IS about the rotational and reciprocating mass of the crank/rods/pistons. There is a significant difference that cannot be negated like can be done with aluminum heads and manifolds.

Maybe Brent or Keith can go in the back and do an actual measurement of the FE and Windsor crank for us.


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[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

There is a significant difference that cannot be negated like can be done with aluminum heads and manifolds.

That's not entirely true, since manufacturers do make lightweight rods, pistons and cranks.

[CobraEd]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

--and don't forget that the windsor will have the added weight of the external balance weight on the front dampner and flywheel .

Yes, that will be 28 ounces X2 ??? !!!


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[D-CEL]

Do I dare......
OK I do!!
Both will get you down the road. If the “Originality” of your replica (I know super oxymoron) is important to you, the FE is the better choice (Did I really say that? lol)
If the cost to achieve that power is the driving concern than a non-FE is the better option.
You would certainly be “unique” with a non FE under the hood. In the Kirkham bible, that is a mortal sin! (BLASPHEMER!! BLASPHEMER!! How dare you speak of such things!!)
Whether you want or can stand the level of ….interest… your peers will bestow upon your non-FE Kirkham is another matter.

Jason

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by D-CEL

Do I dare......
OK I do!!
Both will get you down the road. If the “Originality” of your replica (I know super oxymoron) is important to you, the FE is the better choice (Did I really say that? lol)
If the cost to achieve that power is the driving concern than a non-FE is the better option.
You would certainly be “unique” with a non FE under the hood. In the Kirkham bible, that is a mortal sin! (BLASPHEMER!! BLASPHEMER!! How dare you speak of such things!!)
Whether you want or can stand the level of ….interest… your peers will bestow upon your non-FE Kirkham is another matter.

Jason

Will he use a Lakewood or Quicktime bellhousing? I'll let the OP run a search on that lively discussion.

[Jerry Clayton]

We just got a pallet of Scat cranks in this morning--I'll see if there is a windsor 4 or 4 .125 crank and weight it---

I'll also go back thru some balance jobs for the bob wts down to the last gram


And no---its not 28oz times 2-----

[CobraEd]

Originally Posted by Jerry Clayton

And no---its not 28oz times 2-----

Yes, . . IT IS


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