Eagle 4.250 Cast Crank Broken

[fordracing65]

I wish I had the funds and machinery and a few guys like you (Barry-Blykins) to produce the FE engine under one roof with the quality control of military inspection grade, I know it would not be cost effective, but it would give some piece of mind. And you could change things along the way for improvements.

[blykins]

We can do pretty well just by using parts that have a proven background. I use Scat for pretty much everything I do, with the exception of some LS stuff. The only thing I have against them is that they have trouble keeping up with demand on some items, like some of the Cleveland and FE crankshafts.

Even with the military inspection, unfortunately things can happen. That's why bell curves exist...

[fordracing65]

That is true, you guys work some good magic with these motors, and the HP numbers your able to achieve are amazing.

[elmariachi]

Its really sucks to see Eljaro's engine come apart like this. Not enough Zoloff in Houston to save me if it happened to me. I don't know much about what makes these things break in our cars, but assuming proper balance,machine work and assembly, quality of the casting sure seems to be suspect #1.

[undy]

I'll hazard an educated guess that when the broken surfaces are inspected you'll find a good percentage of the break areas to be a darker gray, signifying a pre-existing crack/flaw.

[Snakebit]

Americans have to wake up! If you want change, then stop re-electing the same people. The old defination of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. It amazes me how Nancy Pelossi and Harry Reed ever got elected to anything. Our polititions sold us out to special interests and campaign contributuons. It's time to fire the bums currently holding office.

Back in the day when you went to your local speed shop and bought "high performance" parts they were race proven and stood up to the test of time. Now you get crap like Eagle and MSD, just to name a few. Look at all the cam failures, and it's not just from the lack of zinc in the oil. Nothing is made in the USA. That is why there is 9% unimployment not counting the people that just gave up looking for work.

OK, I'm getting off my soap box now, but its a damn shame that a guy builds an engine and spends big bucks on "high performance parts" only to have a Chineese crank shaft fail and turn it all into a pile of scrap.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Snakebit

Americans have to wake up! If you want change, then stop re-electing the same people.

I agree, but you are preaching to the choir. We all know that, but the people that DON'T know it may never get it because folks like us refuse to hang around with them.

Back on topic...Eljaro, did you build this engine or was it built there in Spain?

[joyridin']

Originally Posted by Snakebit

Americans have to wake up! If you want change, then stop re-electing the same people. The old defination of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. It amazes me how Nancy Pelossi and Harry Reed ever got elected to anything. Our polititions sold us out to special interests and campaign contributuons. It's time to fire the bums currently holding office.

Back in the day when you went to your local speed shop and bought "high performance" parts they were race proven and stood up to the test of time. Now you get crap like Eagle and MSD, just to name a few. Look at all the cam failures, and it's not just from the lack of zinc in the oil. Nothing is made in the USA. That is why there is 9% unimployment not counting the people that just gave up looking for work.

OK, I'm getting off my soap box now, but its a damn shame that a guy builds an engine and spends big bucks on "high performance parts" only to have a Chineese crank shaft fail and turn it all into a pile of scrap.

Not exactly all true. I visit many machine shops, and all are looking for help. Nobody can find anybody with any skills to run a machine. Everybody these days wants to sit behind a desk and punch numbers. When you walk into most shops, the average age of most machinists is probably in the early 50's. I'm not talking about parts unloaders, I'm talking about people with skills. Part of this is due to our educational system. They teach everybody to go to college. Not a bad thing, but it left a hole in the trade skills. Next we have the employers. During good times, you work 80 hours/week. When the economy slows, the first thing they do is boot them out the door. Also, nobody wants to spend any money to train anybody these days. There used to be 8 facilities where employers sent apprentices to train. Now there is 1.

Let's also not forget Wal-Mart. The land of cheap crap. Everybody wanted the cheapest, so Wal-Mart provided it. The cheapest didn't come from the USA. Once Wal-Mart went to China, everybody else had to do the same to be competitive.

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by elmariachi

Back on topic...Eljaro, did you build this engine or was it built there in Spain?

Great question. Some builders get the double broiler for much, much less damage. This was HUGE.

[Jac Mac]

Originally Posted by joyridin'

Not exactly all true. I visit many machine shops, and all are looking for help. Nobody can find anybody with any skills to run a machine. Everybody these days wants to sit behind a desk and punch numbers. When you walk into most shops, the average age of most machinists is probably in the early 50's. I'm not talking about parts unloaders, I'm talking about people with skills. Part of this is due to our educational system. They teach everybody to go to college. Not a bad thing, but it left a hole in the trade skills. Next we have the employers. During good times, you work 80 hours/week. When the economy slows, the first thing they do is boot them out the door. Also, nobody wants to spend any money to train anybody these days. There used to be 8 facilities where employers sent apprentices to train. Now there is 1.

Let's also not forget Wal-Mart. The land of cheap crap. Everybody wanted the cheapest, so Wal-Mart provided it. The cheapest didn't come from the USA. Once Wal-Mart went to China, everybody else had to do the same to be competitive.

This problem is not confined to the USA, I doubt whether many guys that have come thru modern tech training facilities can do basic stuff like degree in a cam, work out compression ratios, correct pushrod length etc, the stuff that is vital to whether a motor lasts 10 seconds or 10 thousand miles, they can all fit the shiny pod filters and anodized thermostat housings though & charge like a wounded buffalo in the process...

[racco]

eagle stuff is junk. I would use an original 40 year old crank and rods first.
I had eagle "stuff" in a small block chev ten years ago. Didn't last one day.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by Jac Mac

This problem is not confined to the USA, I doubt whether many guys that have come thru modern tech training facilities can do basic stuff like degree in a cam, work out compression ratios, correct pushrod length etc, the stuff that is vital to whether a motor lasts 10 seconds or 10 thousand miles, they can all fit the shiny pod filters and anodized thermostat housings though & charge like a wounded buffalo in the process...

100% agree, nobody else I work with knows how to do anything like that, even my elders.

They think I'm a bit eccentric, because I know stuff like that.

[RICK LAKE]

Racco I ran eagle rods when they first came out. Reason, I have a set of Leman rods that are still in the box and 40+ years old. They also weight 100 grams more than the eagles. My rods where sized and checked for cracks. Rods bolts where replaced with a better ARP 2000 bolt instead of the 8460 that came with them. My machinist is one of the best in the country told me this, LIMIT your rpm range to 6,200 MAX. Oil pressure is also your friend, 55-60 is ok for street but 70-85 is better for track driving with an FE motor. Run a large oilpan with a min of 7-8 quarts and trap doors to make sure no air gets into the pump. He balanced the whole rotating assembly to "0" with everything on the crank, pulleys, dampener, flywheel with clutch, and weight of pistons, rods, pins, clips, and oil of 3 grams. Every thing was indexed. This was also a torque built motor, not high hp motor. I think that there was a note with the new rods about max rpm of 6,700 rpm also. I am guessing you also didn't do many heat cycles to break in the motor to. IMO a 20 minute break in is only to fine out if the camshaft and lifters are going to fail or last. Min of 10 heat cycles with nothing over 4,000 rpms is a good place to start with a new motor. To each is own. Rick L.

[Eljaro]

Well, so many parts are made in China now, that you would be surprised how much Chinese made parts are everywhere, even high priced german cars. THe problem is not China but price.
We all are happy that we get these good priced parts which make our hobby more affordable, but we sooner or later pay the difference.In this case a 500$ crank has broken a 4000$ block.
A 2000$ crank would have been infinitely cheaper .

I do not understand why such a crank can break. It should be sold a paperweight but not as a mechanical part to withstand 500+ HP.
If you type BROKEN EAGLE CRANK in Google you will see pictures of broken cranks, mostly at the front journal, exactly my case.
Most cranks are for chevy, the ones keith uses for the 482 engine. Chevy journals are wider but have a smaller diameter. That means that between the journal and the weight there is less MEAT than on a Ford FE crank, with narrower journals with larger diameter. Maybe the Ford people knew what they were doing in those 427 engines (winning races like Le Mans, which chevy engines didn't).
The broken crank has taken the pond aluminum block with it. I picked up a large chunk of block from the road after the misshap, thinking that some good welding would fix the block. But I have raised the car on the lift now, and things look awfull. A large crack goes up to where the remote oil filter adapter srews to the block.
I have not take the heads off, but will have to see how the valves look like, because the timing chain is broken too, and that spells problems for the valvetrain..
The block was a KC482, and Keiths had done a beautifull job as I inspected it before putting the engine together and I must say it was 1st class. But he says that he can not guarantee all the parts he puts in.
I will order a new short block , but I will definitely go for a much better crank and maybe settle for a cast iron block instead of aluminum.
I do not know if a cast iron block would have withstood a crank breakage better than the aluminum.
What do you think?

[fostereast]

Originally Posted by Eljaro

I do not know if a cast iron block would have withstood a crank breakage better than the aluminum.
What do you think?

I think the cast iron would have been just as bad. Aluminum can be welded easier, so it should be a safer choice. Sounds like in your case, it's beyond repair. It would be nice to see lots of pictures.

Sorry about your troubles. I would not hesitate to use a Scat cast crank. I would not use an Eagle crank, aside from the problem you have, I'm always told Eagle stuff needs more prep, so you pay for machine work on the back end or pay a little more up front for other products.

Sorry for your trouble. Unless you had an oil issue, I can't imagine it was anything other than a material failure due to poor manufacturing controls during casting and heat treating. You can check the hardness and maybe a few other things to see if it was properly treated.

I suspect lots of us would like to buy your block cheap and see what it looks like up close and personal.

[Jerry Clayton]

Looks like another one of those PREMIUM GERMAIN timing chains to me---

I would also like to know about your harmonic dampner--stock, oem, how old, etc. do you use the hatchet weight?
And about your drive line such as condition of joints and phasing of them (independant?)

[RICK LAKE]

Eljaro Would like to see the damage of the block. As long as the main webbing in the center of the block is not broken any aluminum block can be repaired and remachined for usage. I think that without pictures of the rest of the damage it will be hard to say if this block can be repaired. Aluminum is easier to fill, grind, and remachine that iron.
Crankshafts 101 This is from my many years of breaking parts.
Out of balance assemblies cause more breakage that anything else. Only the better machine shop TAKE the time to do a complete balance job. This includes, flywheel, crankshaft, weight of rods, pistons,rings,bearings, piston pins and a couple of grams for oil, dampener, and even pulleys are indexed. There are a couple of companies that will custom build a dampener to get more hormanics out of the assembly for a certain rpm range. This cost from $600.00 to $1,000.00 dollars.
I think people get confused on different info on a cast, forged, and billet crank shaft. Different strengths are also in this mix too. forged crank may be just that but not a 4340 steel. Some cranks get other processes done to them to make them stronger. The problem with this is stronger the crank the more brittel it can be. A test for top of the line cranks is to hit them with a hammer and listen for the sound. IF it rings like a bell, the crank is good, if it clangs it's got a weak spot. The other issue is the rotating mass of about 100 pounds on an fe motor with small bearings both mains and rods. The larger the bearing, the more load it can take and spread out over the surface. IMO a cast crank should be limited to a 6,200 rpm max and this is once in a while not every time the car is ran. A forged crank can go to 7,500 rpms, IF everything is done to help the balancing of "0". The other side note is oil pressure for a street motor. An FE needs a higher oil pressure both at idle and 6,000 rpms than a GM or dodge motor. IMO idle is 30-35 psi and 65-80 psi from 2,500 rpms and up is sure life to an FE. Just like in the 60's.
As long as you get a crank forged with a good steel you should have any more problems unless you are redlighting the car and banging off a limiter when driving. Top of the line crankshafts are about $2,500.00 plus final machine work. Callie, LAE, Hank the Crank, and Velesco are the best IMO but waiting for 8-25 weeks suck. Waiting to see pictures of the parts. Rick L. Ps get a top of the line dampener also for this motor that will absorb harmonics better than a stock dampener with a rubber center. Unless rubber dampener is pinned it can spin out of balance and break the crank also same with pulleys that don't spin true.

[Eljaro]

When I take the engine out I will post pictures

[Jerry Clayton]

Some basics about FE cranks----the areas of question are the front---the area of the front main--the weakest part (and portion that no horsepower leaves the engine from) is from the 1,2 rod journal FORWARD---the only torque that goes thru here is what is necessary to drove the cam, dist, fuel & oil pump and the belt driven accessories. The dampner is heavy, and way forward , probably forward farther than any other crank out there. An external weighted dampner will put tons of occilating stress on the crank snout and cause a fracture the other side of the #1 main between the main and the first rod journal. With this crank, 4.250 stroke, there is a .250 longer arm plus half of the rod journal size differance that is not overlapped between the main/rod journals. makes a ideal situation for failure even without introducting stresses from driveline harmonics.

However, my attention is drawn to that broken timing chain---steel roller (not plastic teeth) chains are especially prone to harmonics and it appears that this one broke straight across at the tangent tooth, which in this case would be the slack side of the chain??????

[Jerry Clayton]

It appears to have some blue silicone sealer where the front ccover bolts to block--also the same blue appears between the crank belt pulley and the dampner part---???????