 
Main Menu
|
|
Nevada Classics
|
|
Advertise at CC
|
|
June 2024
|
| S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
| |
|
|
|
|
|
1 |
| 2 |
3 |
4 |
5 |
6 |
7 |
8 |
| 9 |
10 |
11 |
12 |
13 |
14 |
15 |
| 16 |
17 |
18 |
19 |
20 |
21 |
22 |
| 23 |
24 |
25 |
26 |
27 |
28 |
29 |
| 30 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CC Advertisers
|
|
10-07-2012, 09:30 PM
|
 |
CC Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Melbourne,
Vic
Cobra Make, Engine: Some polish thing... With some old engine
Posts: 2,286
|
|
Not Ranked
Ceramic coating on internal engine parts
I'm looking into the benefits of ceramic coating the internal parts of an engine. ie: pistons, heads, vales, etc...
Before breaking the balls of my engine builder of choice, I was hoping you guys here could chime in and enlighten me with your thoughts, wisdoms and/or experiences.
Plan is a 482 with ALU Pond block... details sketchy but forged pistons & Scat rotating assembly, mild cam mostly street car but may see the occasional stress test on track...
What are the benefits? Is it worth it?
Or are we picking the fly sh!t out of the pepper?
|
-
Advertising
10-08-2012, 03:09 AM
|
|
Senior Club Cobra Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Ellington,
CT
Cobra Make, Engine: Classic Roadster 351W, T5, Red & White
Posts: 3,478
|
|
Not Ranked
__________________
2014 Porsche Cayman S, 2014 M-B CLA 45 AMG,
Unkown:"Their sweet lines all but take my breath away, and I desire them as much for their beauty as for their use "
|
10-08-2012, 03:14 AM
|
|
CC Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Louisville,
KY
Cobra Make, Engine: I'm Cobra-less!
Posts: 9,392
|
|
Not Ranked
Here, I'll make it easy for you Anthony....your pistons will already be coated.  I use Mahles for these stroker FE builds and they come already coated.
__________________
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
|
10-08-2012, 05:19 AM
|
|
CC Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Melbourne,
Vic
Cobra Make, Engine: Some polish thing... With some old engine
Posts: 2,286
|
|
Not Ranked
Quote:
Originally Posted by blykins
Here, I'll make it easy for you Anthony....your pistons will already be coated. I use Mahles for these stroker FE builds and they come already coated. |
Haha... LoL... Well there you go. It's a good thing.
Thanks mate, you're a champ 
Anything else that would benefit from coating?
My tiny mind is thinking anything to aid reducing transfer of heat into an Alu block should theoretically be a good thing, (prevent expanding, etc...), but I'm way out of my comfort zone on this topic. |
10-08-2012, 05:23 AM
|
|
CC Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Louisville,
KY
Cobra Make, Engine: I'm Cobra-less!
Posts: 9,392
|
|
Not Ranked
Generally the use of coatings is used for friction reduction and anti-wear benefits.
The two spots where I see expansion the most on an aluminum block combination is in main bearing clearances and valve lash. I run about .0005-.00075" tighter bearing clearances on the mains. On the valve lash, solid cam engines get about .004" more tighter lash when cold and hydraulic lifter engines get a tad more lifter preload.
__________________
www.lykinsmotorsports.com
|
10-08-2012, 07:32 AM
|
 |
CC Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Williamsport,
PA
Cobra Make, Engine: Kellison Stallion 468 FE
Posts: 2,703
|
|
Not Ranked
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don
|
ditto on the Swain's, they did a ceramic on my piston tops, and a lubricity on the skirts. ceramic coating doesn't like cool combustion chambers, may cause flaking eventually. but its the greatest to prevent detonation damage....
__________________
Fred B
|
10-08-2012, 08:08 AM
|
|
CC Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: West Bloomfield,
MI
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 717
|
|
Not Ranked
The Mahle coatings are nice parts - they use a phosphate dip on all surfaces and a graphite skirt coating. Not many ceramics are used in OE pistons. You will see hard coat anodizing on some stuff - but its actually to prevent ring microwelding and just easier to not bother masking off the top.
__________________
Survival Motorsports
"I can do that....."
Engine Masters Challenge Entries
91 octane - single 4bbl - mufflers
2008 - 429 cid FE HR - 675HP
2007 - 429 cid FE MR - 659HP
2006 - 434 cid FE MR - 678HP
2005 - 505 cid FE MR - 752HP
|
10-10-2012, 10:26 PM
|
|
CC Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Detroit,
MI
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 6
|
|
Not Ranked
Quote:
Originally Posted by FWB
ceramic coating doesn't like cool combustion chambers, may cause flaking eventually.....
|
What does that even mean? Alright, you caught my attention, What is a "cool combustion chamber" and Why on earth would it be the root cause of a coating failure????? |
10-10-2012, 10:49 PM
|
|
CC Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Detroit,
MI
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 6
|
|
Not Ranked
Piston and Cylinder Header Coatings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry_R
The Mahle coatings are nice parts - they use a phosphate dip on all surfaces and a graphite skirt coating. Not many ceramics are used in OE pistons. You will see hard coat anodizing on some stuff - but its actually to prevent ring microwelding and just easier to not bother masking off the top.
|
Mahle makes nice stuff, but you hit the nail on the head, most all of the mass produced pistons are using some variant of a graphite of graphal coating on the skirt. It's better than nothing, but it's primary purpose is for break-in as opposed to extended anti-friction properties gained from dry film lubricants. The phosphate wash / etch is used in lieu of blasting / profiling required for both Ceramic dome coatings and Dry Film skirt Coatings.
OE's are actively working on production methods to integrate traditional Ceramic Thermal Barrier Coatings on piston domes, cylinder heads and valve faces..... This is being done in an effort to recover the 30%+ thermal energy currently being lost through aluminum heads and blocks.
As for hard anodized aluminum pistons I thought this was being done to maintain piston shape / integrity, much the same reason companies like Mahle have introduced steel pistons. Never thought of the ring benefits.
Steel Mahle
Anodized
Ceramic Dome / Dry Film Skirts
|
10-11-2012, 06:54 AM
|
|
Senior Club Cobra Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Ellington,
CT
Cobra Make, Engine: Classic Roadster 351W, T5, Red & White
Posts: 3,478
|
|
Not Ranked
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCPcoatings.com
What does that even mean? Alright, you caught my attention, What is a "cool combustion chamber" and Why on earth would it be the root cause of a coating failure?????
|
It's been a few years + since I contacted them, consider calling Swain and discuss with their personnel your desires and questions:
Race Coatings | Swain Tech Coatings | Industrial Coatings | High Performance Racing CoatingsSwain Tech Coatings | Industrial Coatings | High Performance Racing Coatings
__________________
2014 Porsche Cayman S, 2014 M-B CLA 45 AMG,
Unkown:"Their sweet lines all but take my breath away, and I desire them as much for their beauty as for their use "
|
10-11-2012, 06:59 AM
|
|
CC Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Williamsport,
PA
Cobra Make, Engine: Kellison Stallion 468 FE
Posts: 2,703
|
|
Not Ranked
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCPcoatings.com
What does that even mean? Alright, you caught my attention, What is a "cool combustion chamber" and Why on earth would it be the root cause of a coating failure?????
|
Investigation of Thermal Barrier Coatings on IC Engines
without going into a two year study of thermodynamics here on the forum i will just refer you to this engineering article. it is quite lengthy and talks about thicknesses and alot of science but essentially think about the properties of the components, the aluminum has it own thermal expansion properties, the head another, the coating another. the ceramic is a heat sink holding energy, the oil is splashing upon the bottom of the piston so the top and bottom surfaces have different temps, with low temperatures in the combustion chamber the coating does not absorb enough energy to function properly, hence it advantage being mainly on very high performance racing engines not street. enough cycles of expansion and contraction in a way that the coating cannot maintain its adhesion to the substrate, IE aluminum in this case, it will fail
__________________
Fred B
|
10-11-2012, 07:34 AM
|
|
CC Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Detroit,
MI
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 6
|
|
Not Ranked
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don
|
Oh, ok, I suspect there was a communication issue then. We've been Ceramic Coating for over 10 years, using the same materials as Swain and I have never seen or heard anything like that.
Outside of exceeding 2000F+ which would obviously cause bigger problems for you and your engine, , any flaking or peeling of your coatings would be the result of some processing error.
Knock on wood, we have never seen this conditions or experienced it in an internal engine coating scenario. |
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:47 PM.
|
Linear Mode
