What's the appeal of an aluminum engine block?

[blykins]

I would think that a $$$$ "aftermarket" block would be an ego-booster. Not solely focused on aluminum.

If the Cup guys can go 200 mph at 9500 with a cast iron block, you guys can drive 5 miles to Starbucks without nosing over and missing your turn......

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

I would think that a $$$$ "aftermarket" block would be an ego-booster. Not solely focused on aluminum.

If the Cup guys can go 200 mph at 9500 with a cast iron block, you guys can drive 5 miles to Starbucks without nosing over and missing your turn......

Well, that says it all. You don't understand your market. I don't know what you're drinking in KY for coffee in the morning, but we folks that buy alloy FE blocks don't drink that swill that parades around as Starbuck's coffee. That's pure crappola.

And if we're going to be seen at Starbucks, we take our Pinarello bicycles anyway.

[lippy]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

And if we're going to be seen at Starbucks, we take our Pinarello bicycles anyway.

You must live in Woodside.

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by blykins

If the Cup guys can go 200 mph at 9500 with a cast iron block, you guys can drive 5 miles to Starbucks without nosing over and missing your turn......

That is freakin' funny.
A little disdain for your customers is healthy.
And you're in good company

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by rodneym

That is freakin' funny.
A little disdain for your customers is healthy.
And you're in good company

I've always thought there was something funny about the "alloy" guys. I think we should exclude them whenever possible.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I've always thought there was something funny about the "alloy" guys. I think we should exclude them whenever possible.

Not to mention those "guys" with Desert Storm Camo beige Cobras, Faux FE's, two roll bars with pipe insulation around them and Christmas tree lights masquerading around as Cobra trunk trim.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Not to mention those "guys" with Desert Storm Camo beige Cobras, Faux FE's, two roll bars with pipe insulation around them and Christmas tree lights masquerading around as Cobra trunk trim.

No, for guys like that we all wear safety pins.

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I've always thought there was something funny about the "alloy" guys. I think we should exclude them whenever possible.

Call me Lonesome Dove.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by rodneym

That is freakin' funny.
A little disdain for your customers is healthy.
And you're in good company

It was tongue in cheek, but I've known a lot of you for years and feel like I can take a jab every now and then.

Plus I know how a lot of these cars are used. The first engine I ever delivered ended up in a Hurricane Cobra. 10 years later it had 4000 miles on it.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by blykins

The first engine I ever delivered ended up in a Hurricane Cobra. 10 years later it had 4000 miles on it.

That sounds like a DD to me.

[rodneym]

Originally Posted by blykins

It was tongue in cheek, but I've known a lot of you for years and feel like I can take a jab every now and then.

Plus I know how a lot of these cars are used. The first engine I ever delivered ended up in a Hurricane Cobra. 10 years later it had 4000 miles on it.

bly,
I hope you know I love you (you know what I mean). And I'm a customer of yours too, if you remember. Albeit not a big $$$ one.

Jab away. My skin is A LOT thicker than aluminum skin. More like a thick, hardened and cured fiberglass Co-ahhh, forget it.

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by blykins

I would think that a $$$$ "aftermarket" block would be an ego-booster. Not solely focused on aluminum.

If the Cup guys can go 200 mph at 9500 with a cast iron block, you guys can drive 5 miles to Starbucks without nosing over and missing your turn......

I believe nascar uses compact graphite iron blocks not cast iron. They are stronger than cast but lighter. They get a new engine every 1000 miles. So it makes sense to use iron. Formula 1 uses aluminum but those engines are on a different planet than a nascar motor.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

I believe nascar uses compact graphite iron blocks not cast iron. They are stronger than cast but lighter. They get a new engine every 1000 miles. So it makes sense to use iron. Formula 1 uses aluminum but those engines are on a different planet than a nascar motor.

Yes sir, that is correct, but that just changed with the newest generation of FR9 engines.

Up until a few years ago, they were all cast iron blocks.

Those stupid CGI FR9 blocks are like $13k a piece.

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by blykins

If the Cup guys can go 200 mph at 9500 with a cast iron block, you guys can drive 5 miles to Starbucks without nosing over and missing your turn......

By that account, may as well take a Prius.

...and by the way, 5miles to Starbucks is about as far as I can go on a tank anyway, but it's the best 5miles I get!

[Barry_R]

Its been a long time since I posted here - "life" has kept me a bit busy...

I can back up a few statements. Nobody has any aluminum blocks. I have not seen one shipped for months. I get promises - and unfortunately have repeated them to customers - and then I get no parts. If there were an alternate I would go to another supplier. But out of the FE block suppliers - Side Oiler Garage (former Genesis), Pond, Shelby, Dove, BBM - none of them have a block to ship. I have already paid one of those guys for five blocks in advance and received nothing in return.

We have a vacuum impregnation facility here in the Detroit area - out by the airport. Very nice guy who is justifiably proud of his services. Every single aluminum block I do will get impregnated from now on (Bill - your's was done too) after I had an issue a few years ago. The cost is added into the build, but I do not call it out because customer get nervous about a process the might not understand. This place does a bunch of military and OEM transmission stuff.

The weight savings is nice and I can fully understand the desire. The blocks themselves seem to be consistently inconsistent in quality. I have always been able to build them into good engines but they are always a challenge and I kind of agree with the sentiment - they should cost 20% more for labor because of the extra effort required. Every single fastener needs to be retightened after they run - the aluminum growth seems to loosen them all up. They leak - probably for the same reason. I suspect that the OEMs use better alloy and a much more sophisticated process for fasteners, seals and gaskets to avoid these problems.

The 427 stuff is definitely cool - given the choice I would prefer to build an iron block every time. We pretty much never have any issues with 390 based 445 builds, and we do them at a rate of two or three per month.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Barry_R

But out of the FE block suppliers - Side Oiler Garage (former Genesis), Pond, Shelby, Dove, BBM - none of them have a block to ship.

It begs the question. Why isn't there a single new FE block anywhere? Was there a run of purchases (demand outstripped supply) and sellers were caught off guard? Are there manufacturing problems at every foundry? Or are the foundries really not interested in making 50-100 blocks per year when they have other larger orders that are higher priority because of size and fixed contracts.

From Brent's remarks, the lack of blocks has been a year long problem. These really are just rhetorical questions, but if I were building a Cobra, Mustang, Fairlane, I'd be a little upset because 352's, 390's, 427's and 428's just wouldn't do it for me at the prices these engines sell for.

[fordracing65]

From what I hear the foundries being used. the quality got so bad they had to look elsewhere which takes time and effort. It amazes me in this big world we live in nobody can make an aluminum fe block that is satisfactory for the consumer and builder. Kinda like tires for these cars. One company makes a good set Avon and that's it. Even Shelby changed foundries and they only make aluminum blocks.

[fordracing65]

Craft racing bought everything Pond had in aluminum and are using them for their complete engine builds. They won't sell just the block right now. They had 3 of the new run and said they looked fine. They have 8 more coming soon they said. BBM says end of January for their new aluminum block. But few have seen or used one so people are skeptical.

[Phx Mike]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

It begs the question. Why isn't there a single new FE block anywhere? Was there a run of purchases (demand outstripped supply) and sellers were caught off guard? Are there manufacturing problems at every foundry? Or are the foundries really not interested in making 50-100 blocks per year when they have other larger orders that are higher priority because of size and fixed contracts.

From Brent's remarks, the lack of blocks has been a year long problem. These really are just rhetorical questions, but if I were building a Cobra, Mustang, Fairlane, I'd be a little upset because 352's, 390's, 427's and 428's just wouldn't do it for me at the prices these engines sell for.

Aluminum sand castings are difficult - period. The weight saving benefits due to the superior strength to weight ratio of aluminum vs iron makes it an essential element in a modern car (fuel economy). But the big guys (OEM's) are able to spend a lot of time and money optimizing the part designs and casting processes to improve the yield of the parts. They have to do this in order for the economics to work (you can't survive the cost impact otherwise). It is more than just the alloy used - aluminum is poured at much lower temps than iron or steel or titanium castings and it cools quickly. If the mold designs and temp and the pour process are not perfect, you get splashing, asymmetric cooling and all kinds of other issues that result in voids. Some times you don't detect these voids until you start machining the casting and get a break-out. I see this in the aerospace industry also. Sometimes you can get 100 good parts in a row and then something very subtle changes and you can't seem to get a good part. Very stringent process control in the foundry is needed to minimize this. It is hard to justify this when you are making a few hundred parts per year.

None of this is the fault of or can be controlled by the engine builder. The foundry processes and basic part design are the drivers.

[blykins]

When there are not *high* quantities involved, pretty much anything is game.

I can receive 5 sets of heads and they can all be a different shade of "aluminum". Some are a little darker than others (which I kinda like LOL). I suppose that's from the mold release agent. I've also got different aluminum blocks in that were a different shade as well.

Fun stuff.