Keith Craft Inc.- We service what we sell!!! Check out our Cobra engines!!! We build high performance racing engines and components for the fast pace strip racing industry as well as daily drivers who want to be FIRST!!!

FE Forums sponsored by Keith Craft Inc.


Go Back   Club Cobra > Engine Building, Tuning, and Induction > FE TALK

Welcome to Club Cobra!  The World's largest non biased Shelby Cobra related site!

  •  » Representation from nearly all Cobra/Daytona/GT40 manufacturers
  •  » Help from all over the world for your questions
  •  » Build logs for you and all members
  •  » Blogs
  •  » Image Gallery
  •  » Many thousands of members and nearly 1 million posts! 

YES! I want to register an account for free right now!  p.s.: For registered members this ad will NOT show

MMG Superformance
Nevada Classics
Keith Craft Racing
Main Menu
Nevada Classics
Nevada Classics
MMG Superformance
Keith Craft Racing
Advertise at CC
Banner Ad Rates
Keith Craft Racing
MMG Superformance
March 2024
S M T W T F S
          1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31            

Kirkham Motorsports

Like Tree12Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2017, 12:41 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wickenburg, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine: Superformance, 427 FE
Posts: 197
Not Ranked     
Default New alloy 427 FE build.. call me crazy

I have been reading on here a lot about the alloy block problems from some very experienced builders.
I am however committed to going that direction. So for those of you pondering such a decision, here goes.

Some back story. When i built my Superformance I installed a 428 FE. Mild cam, intake made to run on pump gas. Iron block and heads. Dyno @ 388 HP @ 4900 and 499 TQ @ 3300. I had a performance shop build it, but they missed a lot. The engine was troublesome from the start with heating and blowing head gasket. A cracked piston. It had the 3rd blown head gasket at the track (never the same cylinder or side). So I hit the point that i pulled it to find out what the heck. Turned out it was a 40 over bore and it failed a sonic test as well as a problem with the deck. Moral of the story, get a good builder.

So now I find I need a block. I already made the choice to go to aluminum heads, mostly because of fuel made today.
We decided on a Pond 427 alloy block. I would have done iron but my new builder did not like the choices and availability. He knows that he is up against alloy issues.
As I understand it, most everyone has changed foundries so maybe my story will be of the newer 2017 batches. Who knows maybe some problems have been solved.

As many components I have from the 428 are a direct bolt on, I will not move away from an FE. (I will need some new T-Shirts...lol)

I am not going for stupid HP and I am not in it for the bling or bragging rights. I am in it for reliability. My understanding from here and my builder, is once past the building pains, it could be very reliable.

I will keep you posted.
__________________
If enough people disagree with me, I know I am doing it right
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2017, 12:47 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 973
Not Ranked     
Default

Good luck. I applaud your efforts to stick with an FE.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2017, 12:49 PM
Texasdoc's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Keller, TX
Cobra Make, Engine: Lonestar Classics LS427. Self-built 408W, AFR 195 heads, Performer RPM Intake, Quick Fuel 750, 407rwhp, 479rwtq
Posts: 549
Not Ranked     
Default

You're Crazy.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2017, 12:51 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wickenburg, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine: Superformance, 427 FE
Posts: 197
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texasdoc View Post
You're Crazy.
Many have said that about me, even before this undertaking.
__________________
If enough people disagree with me, I know I am doing it right
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2017, 12:53 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wickenburg, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine: Superformance, 427 FE
Posts: 197
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 66gtk View Post
Good luck. I applaud your efforts to stick with an FE.
Thanks. A zillion years ago I was a mechanic and the big ford FE was my holly grail of engines.
__________________
If enough people disagree with me, I know I am doing it right
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2017, 12:59 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 973
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2bars View Post
Thanks. A zillion years ago I was a mechanic and the big ford FE was my holly grail of engines.
Still is IMO when it comes to cars like these and other period Fords.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2017, 01:28 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wickenburg, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine: Superformance, 427 FE
Posts: 197
Not Ranked     
Default

Me too. When I originally set out to get my Cobra I wanted to feel 1965. To see what all the fuss was about.
So the FE was the only choice and a minimum of a 428. I actually had the engine before the car.
__________________
If enough people disagree with me, I know I am doing it right
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2017, 04:02 PM
Dimis's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Melbourne, Vic
Cobra Make, Engine: Some polish thing... With some old engine
Posts: 2,286
Not Ranked     
Default

GO nuts!
I think once you've got a few cycles in the build. she'll cause you no more problems than any other engine.

Any ideas on whose heads you're likely to opt for?
If your just after nice street-ability then I'd vote for a set of survivals felony heads from Barry R.

By the way, who have you commissioned to build the engine?

Good luck
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2017, 04:22 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wickenburg, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine: Superformance, 427 FE
Posts: 197
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimis View Post
GO nuts!
I think once you've got a few cycles in the build. she'll cause you no more problems than any other engine.

Any ideas on whose heads you're likely to opt for?
If your just after nice street-ability then I'd vote for a set of survivals felony heads from Barry R.

By the way, who have you commissioned to build the engine?

Good luck
I am using Bud at MACH Development Home Page

I am going with Edelbrock heads. It is from the builder recommendations. He will be doing some work to them.

As a back story, I did reach out to builders that are on here. Shipping the old engine east for diagnoses and then repair did not sound feasible. I had some recommendations for out west builders. I talked to a few. I also talked to Hillbanks and since I am in Arizona, they highly recommended a guy named Charlie at American Legends. He is very good with Superformance Cobras. They also build hot rods and do original Shelby restorations. He hooked me up with the machinist he uses. Bud seems to be fairly well versed with the FE. I guess time will tell.
__________________
If enough people disagree with me, I know I am doing it right
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2017, 05:48 PM
patrickt's Avatar
Half-Ass Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 21,889
Not Ranked     
Default

An FE is a true joy to own in a Cobra, if you have it built right, and to the specs that really suit you and your driving. Of course, I'm a big solid flat tappet proponent. And I like the old profiles for both sound and gentle ramp rates.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2017, 11:28 AM
AC Ventura's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: North of London, UK
Cobra Make, Engine: AC Cars Limited, 302 EFI
Posts: 204
Not Ranked     
Default Pond FE in mid build right now.

Hi 2 bars.

I'm I'm currently having a Pond Block 427 FE built right now. I wanted it vintage spec, but all aluminium, so have had a custom crank manufactured to O.E. specification. All I want is in the region of 500/500. I don't want the point of no return, to be every moment in every gear.

I'm in the same place as you, except I curently run an all iron 302 EFI in my Autokraft Mk IV. I'm hoping the weights will be within 10% and the distribution will be maintained. The decision to go all aluminium FE wasn't taken lightly and so far I've waited a painful 18 months while the saga of foundry issues has continued. Seemingly that's solved now. It's not been an easy wait as I'm in the UK and have relied on emails and faith....!

The (well known) builder says the new units from Robert are the best he's seen. He says the machining has been done, the assembly balanced and hopefully next week the heads will be on.
The big decision is the cam. I want to race idle but be able to drive the thing on street. I'm trying not to interfere, because Mr builder says he understands, I can't have it all ways and to leave it to him. However, it's hard to resist looking at cam specs, once you know the cam sound you like (Crower 16331/16257)!

I'm happy to share what I've learnt, but as I say it's mid build right now. However, I think it will be worth the wait and everyone here thinks I'm insane to cut up a complete car to make it fit.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2017, 02:12 PM
philminotti's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Orange, CT
Cobra Make, Engine: KMP 736 Street, Pond 482, FAST XFI EFI
Posts: 339
Not Ranked     
Default

I did a Pond based 482 myself, in my own basement. From a bare block. It's not that hard if you're careful. I did have various leaks and assorted problems, but that's part of the fun. I now have over 4000 miles on my Kirkham with that engine. Dyno'd at the rear wheels through a very restrictive undercar exhaust with 2" tailpipes at 460hp. I figure I'm losing a TON through that exhaust.

My advice to you is: don't listen to people that tell you it has to be done one way or that you can't do this or that. For instance, all the know it all, talking heads will say "don't Copper-Kote your felpro 1020's." Well guess what? It works fine. It don't leak. And I run the piss out of it. Do what works and do it well.

Oh and one more thing...test it on a run stand or an engine dyno. Trust me and that one.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2017, 03:20 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Louisville, KY
Cobra Make, Engine: I'm Cobra-less!
Posts: 9,389
Send a message via AIM to blykins
Not Ranked     
Default

If you have to copper coat head gaskets, there is an underlying issue that you are band-aiding.

Proper machine work takes care of things like that.

We can account for proper machine work. The things that we can't account for are manufacturing defects, porous spots, etc. Once you have a couple on the dyno that are pumping water throughout the engine or bleeding oil internally because of a drill-through, you really don't want to mess with them anymore.

Those kinds of things turn me against aftermarket fe blocks pretty quickly. I've had 2 aluminum blocks that were returned because they failed pressure tests, a cast iron block that needed a sleeve out of the box, and Barry has recently had 2 cast iron blocks that bled out internally, and one that had excessive lifter bore clearance out of the box.

The engine builder usually gets stuck with the repairs since none of us think the customer should have to be involved.
__________________
www.lykinsmotorsports.com

Last edited by blykins; 07-01-2017 at 03:33 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2017, 05:30 PM
Phx Mike's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine: Ex owner of a polished Kirkham 427 S/C. Now Cobra-less and driving a mid-engine German hot rod.
Posts: 828
Not Ranked     
Default

Good luck on the build. I have a Pond block based 482 FE from Lance over at Craft and have had no problems at all but I do feel there are 3 factors that affect your outcome. The first is the parts manufacturing quality and there is no question that sand castings, especially aluminum ones, can and do have defects, many of which cannot be detected until machined (porosity breakouts, etc) or tested, and I do feel for Brent and the other builders here. The second is the quality of work done to prepare the block, heads and reciprocating parts for assembly, and the quality of the assembly work itself. The third is how you have chosen to balance the performance vs driveability equation through your choice of compression ratio, camshaft profile, heads/porting etc. The last two factors are controllable but the first one not so much. Good luck and look forward to seeing it soon!

Mike
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2017, 12:00 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wickenburg, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine: Superformance, 427 FE
Posts: 197
Not Ranked     
Default

Thanks for the support guys. And reassurance with the alloy.
Parts on in transit as I type this. It will be a 482 stroker. Aiming for 9.5:1 compression. I live in Arizona and it gets hot. I do not want to deal with detonation on pump gas (like I did).
It is a Scat crank. I am sticking with the same cam and hydraulic lifters.
It will be run on a dyno.
Ceramic coating to combustion chamber, pistons
__________________
If enough people disagree with me, I know I am doing it right
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2017, 12:03 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wickenburg, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine: Superformance, 427 FE
Posts: 197
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phx Mike View Post
Good luck on the build. I have a Pond block based 482 FE from Lance over at Craft and have had no problems at all but I do feel there are 3 factors that affect your outcome. The first is the parts manufacturing quality and there is no question that sand castings, especially aluminum ones, can and do have defects, many of which cannot be detected until machined (porosity breakouts, etc) or tested, and I do feel for Brent and the other builders here. The second is the quality of work done to prepare the block, heads and reciprocating parts for assembly, and the quality of the assembly work itself. The third is how you have chosen to balance the performance vs driveability equation through your choice of compression ratio, camshaft profile, heads/porting etc. The last two factors are controllable but the first one not so much. Good luck and look forward to seeing it soon!

Mike
I will be very cautious of your number 1 point. I think I have read every thread here on alloy FE. So I understand the red flag. And Yes YOU could see it soon as we are in proximity.
__________________
If enough people disagree with me, I know I am doing it right
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2017, 12:10 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wickenburg, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine: Superformance, 427 FE
Posts: 197
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC Ventura View Post
Hi 2 bars.

I'm I'm currently having a Pond Block 427 FE built right now. I wanted it vintage spec, but all aluminium, so have had a custom crank manufactured to O.E. specification. All I want is in the region of 500/500. I don't want the point of no return, to be every moment in every gear.

I'm in the same place as you, except I curently run an all iron 302 EFI in my Autokraft Mk IV. I'm hoping the weights will be within 10% and the distribution will be maintained. The decision to go all aluminium FE wasn't taken lightly and so far I've waited a painful 18 months while the saga of foundry issues has continued. Seemingly that's solved now. It's not been an easy wait as I'm in the UK and have relied on emails and faith....!

The (well known) builder says the new units from Robert are the best he's seen. He says the machining has been done, the assembly balanced and hopefully next week the heads will be on.
The big decision is the cam. I want to race idle but be able to drive the thing on street. I'm trying not to interfere, because Mr builder says he understands, I can't have it all ways and to leave it to him. However, it's hard to resist looking at cam specs, once you know the cam sound you like (Crower 16331/16257)!

I'm happy to share what I've learnt, but as I say it's mid build right now. However, I think it will be worth the wait and everyone here thinks I'm insane to cut up a complete car to make it fit.
Thanks a bunch for sharing. My last engine, the 428 FE, was built relatively mild. My thinking was A, to feel 1966 and B, reliability. The reliability went out the window with a poor build. But I must say that a mild 428 was a powerhouse in the Cobra. And that was one in the 400 HP range.
You are going to love going from a SB to BB. It will be well worth it> I guess I am still holding back some on HP, but 500 is still a 100 HP bump!
Keep me posted on how your progresses.
__________________
If enough people disagree with me, I know I am doing it right
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2017, 12:23 PM
Phx Mike's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine: Ex owner of a polished Kirkham 427 S/C. Now Cobra-less and driving a mid-engine German hot rod.
Posts: 828
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2bars View Post
Thanks for the support guys. And reassurance with the alloy.
Parts on in transit as I type this. It will be a 482 stroker. Aiming for 9.5:1 compression. I live in Arizona and it gets hot. I do not want to deal with detonation on pump gas (like I did).
It is a Scat crank. I am sticking with the same cam and hydraulic lifters.
It will be run on a dyno.
Ceramic coating to combustion chamber, pistons
I think you are making a good call on the compression ratio. Mine is at about 10:1. I am running a Comp Cams custom grind with 242/248 intake and exhaust durations (@0.050") and lift at 0.642/0.631 respectively and 112 degree LSA. Edelbrock heads with stage 3 porting and the big valves (2.25/1.75). No pinging on 91 octane but it does diesel when I shut it down (timing at 12 degrees at 800 rpm idle and about 38 degrees fully advanced at 2750 or so). If I run a little 95 octane in it the dieseling goes away...it really likes octane level at or above 92-93. With a similar setup and 9.5 to 1 you should be just right I think.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2017, 01:06 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Wickenburg, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine: Superformance, 427 FE
Posts: 197
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phx Mike View Post
I think you are making a good call on the compression ratio. Mine is at about 10:1. I am running a Comp Cams custom grind with 242/248 intake and exhaust durations (@0.050") and lift at 0.642/0.631 respectively and 112 degree LSA. Edelbrock heads with stage 3 porting and the big valves (2.25/1.75). No pinging on 91 octane but it does diesel when I shut it down (timing at 12 degrees at 800 rpm idle and about 38 degrees fully advanced at 2750 or so). If I run a little 95 octane in it the dieseling goes away...it really likes octane level at or above 92-93. With a similar setup and 9.5 to 1 you should be just right I think.
Yes, my 428 had the dieseling problem too.
Good to hear feed back, because my builder is wanting to go that way and being old school I always think higher compression is a good thing. He is educating me on today's fuel and the effect on these older engines.

Cam is a Elgin Pro stock # E 963 P. Cam lift .292, Duration 300 and valve lift .505. It Same numbers int and exh
__________________
If enough people disagree with me, I know I am doing it right
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-03-2017, 02:41 PM
cycleguy55's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: White City, SK
Cobra Make, Engine: West Coast, 460 CID
Posts: 2,844
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2bars View Post
Yes, my 428 had the dieseling problem too.
Good to hear feed back, because my builder is wanting to go that way and being old school I always think higher compression is a good thing. He is educating me on today's fuel and the effect on these older engines.

Cam is a Elgin Pro stock # E 963 P. Cam lift .292, Duration 300 and valve lift .505. It Same numbers int and exh
Duration @ 0.050" is 224 degrees on that cam, so a pretty mild build. Should be a nice car to cruise around in.

Good luck with your build.
__________________
Brian
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
The representations expressed are the representations and opinions of the clubcobra.com forum members and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and viewpoints of the site owners, moderators, Shelby American, any other replica manufacturer, Ford Motor Company. This website has been planned and developed by clubcobra.com and its forum members and should not be construed as being endorsed by Ford Motor Company, or Shelby American or any other manufacturer unless expressly noted by that entity. "Cobra" and the Cobra logo are registered trademarks for Ford Motor Co., Inc. clubcobra.com forum members agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is owned by you. Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). Thank you for visiting clubcobra.com. For full policy documentation refer to the following link: CC Policy