Dove Heads vs Edelbrock for 390 build - Page 2

6T5 Cbra · #21 (**permalink**) 01-10-2003, 09:49 PM

Man, this thread moved fast.

PJS50,

Quote:

"Gene, did you build your whole Everett Morrison kit? Would you recommend them?"

No, didn't build it. Probably should have since I've had just about every part off of it at one time or another. As far as the EM kit itself, I highly recommend it. It's very solid.

Quote:

"Will your AC with the 390 beat a Viper or Z06 Vette when the light turns green?"

Can't really say whether or not I could beat a Viper or Vette as I've never really raced one. I have played the 'light to light' games and know the car can hold it's own. Whether I would win or lose, I know I wouldn't be embarrassed.

Quote:

"Are the Tremec trannys TOUGH or are the Richmond 5 speeds a better deal?"

So far my car has ~7.5k miles on it and haven't had a problem yet with the tremec. I don't have any experience with the Richmond.

Regarding you're question about using the Edelbrock vs Dove stuff. I'm really happy with my setup. It has a very nice 'lope' at idle (1200 rpm) but it does stutter a bit from a stop unless you get on it. Once you hit the sweet spot on the cam (~2000 rpm) the power comes on really strong and keeps on pushing. I think for 'off the shelf' parts, you can't go wrong with Edelbrock.

Make sure you take notes from the FE guys that post here. Most of these guys really know their stuff. They have probably forgotten more about these motors than a lot of us will ever know.

Good Luck,

Gene

Sizzler · #22 (**permalink**) 01-12-2003, 08:30 AM

Here's what it would look like with Hydraulic Roller Lifters, the correct length pushrods, and a Shelby Rocker setup:

PJS50 · #23 (**permalink**) 01-13-2003, 03:57 PM

WOW Mike ... Awesome pictures... My wife is going to get lucky tonight because I am definitely sporting a chubby now...ha ha ha
I don't own the car yet... If you think that Armando's pan will fit in an E-M kit I will order it... Do you have his phone number/part number?
I went and did a search on the CC for Dove heads and I think that I will opt for the Edelbrocks like you suggested.. Thanks again... I may get them unassemble and let "my guy" have at them with a mild port job... Any suggestions on valve seat angles?
In that first motor, who's rocker assembly is that? I see the second one is Shelby's... In looking for the head info it seemed that a lot of guys on this site liked the Erson roller rockers & stands... Any experience with those? The Ersons are adjustable but on their site they said you could use them with either mechanical or hydraulic lifters... Again, I was planning on using a Hyd. roller cam which is being made for me...
Jon, to answer your question about why a custom ground cam... The guy who is doing my machine work does these in his shop and is trying to work off some money that he will end up owing me... You see, I am a hardwood flooring distributor and he is building a big house right now... I am swapping materials for some machine work... Initially, I was just going to let him do the machine work and I was going to assemble the motor but he is getting A LOT of hardwood so... I may let him put it together...
My only apprehension is that I don't know how many FE's his shop has turned out in the past... They DO have some awesome equipment there and in fact, they make, on site, their own aluminum engine blocks. Along with titanium valve springs, camshafts, and other Hi-Perf "stuff"...

Dave V · #24 (**permalink**) 01-15-2003, 08:24 AM

Why can't a 390 make 450 HP? The January 2003 Hot Rod magazine built a 390 to make 450HP and 460 torque. It had the Eldelbrock heads and RPM intake, an 800 cfm carb and 9.68 compression. They built it for 'truck street use". Why wouldn't this set up work for a cobra? My engine is burning an extreme amount of oil so I am about to rebuild my 390 FE. I had a lot of the same questions that are being addressed in this thread.

Thanks for your help.

Dave V

SFfiredog · #25 (**permalink**) 01-15-2003, 10:12 AM

PJS50,

The rockers in the photo are the Ersons. I think they are the best value for the money going and I like their quality and fit. I would also suggest buying the rocker stud kit and oil pump from Presision Oil Pumps in Madera, CA. (559) 645-1951. The stud kit is designed to work with the E-brock heads to promote the proper oil flow to the rocker shafts. They also make a really nice blueprinted oil pump assembly and HD oil pump driveshaft that are very reasonably priced. Armando's oil pans # is (323) 588 7622. They are in Los Angeles and have a website but I don't have the info in front of me. As far as I know, it shoud fit the E-M kit. Most FE Fords use a 30 degree valve seat. This helps promote low lift flow numbers but can limit higher RPM flow. You are "on the fence" with your combo as far as wether a 30 or 45 degree seat is concerned. I always lean to the conservative side on a street engine so I would stick to a 30 degree seat.
--Mike

FE Specialties · #26 (**permalink**) 01-15-2003, 07:45 PM

Pat,

Mike is right on the money about the advice he told you. One thing I can add is on the cam grind. On a hyd. roller, you dont have to go as big in duration to achieve the same results as a flat tappet cam.
I would run, in your application, about 280-284 advertised duration, straight across. With a Cobra, with the 2" header primary size, you really dont need the extra exhaust duration. Especially if you run the Edelbrock heads. They have a very good exhaust port design!!
Anyways, 280-284 Adv. dur. 232-234 .050 dur on 112 lobe sep.
108 intake centerline! Remember, seperation is different than centerline!!
This cam will give you unreal torque from 2000 to 5500 and great power up to 6200.
Hope this helps!!!!
Tom

PJS50 · #27 (**permalink**) 01-16-2003, 06:10 AM

All you guys are awesome...
Ok... Now let me throw a wrench into this...
I was reading more yesterday and didn't realize how easy is seems to make a 390 into a 410 (with a 428 crank right?)
Is this really as easy as it sounds? No bottom end machining needed? Does this dramatically change engine balancing issues (428's were internally balanced like 390's?)?
In my reading, this simple change can yield an additional 5% to 8% more power...?
Are there forged 428 cranks available?
Is this worth the effort?
Also, does anybody have a source for the Erson roller rockers? It appears that Summit stopped selling them, or at least pulled the items from their catalog both paper and online...
Back when I was building my '67 Mustang motor PAW used to have a lot of supplies for FE's and everything else. They haven't gone online yet however... The last catalog I have from them is dated 1987...!
See what I mean when I said it has been a while since I have played with this stuff...!

SFfiredog · #28 (**permalink**) 01-19-2003, 11:24 PM

PJS50,
The Ersons seem to be on back-order from everyone. Try Tom at FE Specialties or George at Gessford. They might have some in stock. Flatlander Racing lists them for $585.00 so you might try them. Scat makes a 3.98 stroke (428) that uses big block Chevy size aftermarket rods. If I were building a 390 and didin't mind spending a little extra money that's the crank to use. Let's figure it: (These prices are averaged from online sources and are approximates, but close)
Scat crank, 3.98 for BBC rods $775
Eagle rods, BBC, 6.700" $475
Custom pistons and pins $650
All the other component prices should be the same as building a 390.
Advantages:
1) The Scat crank will yield 416 ci on a .030 390 block.
2) The motor is still oversquare at 4.080 bore by 3.98 stroke.
3) The longer (6.700 vs. 6.48) rod gives a superior rod angle and also makes for a lighter piston. BTW, the piston pin is still below the oil ring so oil consumption should not be an issue.
4)The light rod and piston assembly will make balancing very easy.
You should be able to internally balance without any (or very little) Mallory metal.
5)It will still be a revver (6500 rpm no problem)
Dissadvantages:
1) It will cost you about a grand more to build than a standard 390
2) See #1 above
If you go this way I'd have your engine guy whittle you a 'stick (hydraulic roller?)
with about 240 to 245 deg. duration @.050 with about .560" to 570" lift. Manual trans go with 110 deg lobe centers, auto trans 112 deg lobe centers. For a mechanical flat tappet cam, I'd go 10 deg more duration and .020 more lift.
I'm up for building a combo like this! Any takers? (with money

)
--Mike

RICK LAKE · #29 (**permalink**) 08-16-2007, 07:48 AM

Sizzler Do you remember the correct lenght of the push rods in the FE motor pictures. The roller end is 5/16 ball and top end is 3/8 cup. Rick Lake

Barry_R · #30 (**permalink**) 08-16-2007, 10:16 AM

Couple things....
I will try to keep this kinda technical/informational since I am a supplier of parts - and other suppliers support this forum.

The Scat 428 crank uses FE rod journal sizes - not BBC.
The Scat 4.25 and 4.125 stroker cranks use the BBC journals.
The Scat 3.98 stroke crank is designed for internal balance - easy!

In my experience (I've done a couple of these) the Scat rods have been easily the equivalent of the Eagle parts, and sometimes better. No problems with size or weight here. No balance pads on the H beams. Make your selection between the two based on price/availability/vendor relationship.

You will get a discount if you decide to purchase everything at one time. Several suppliers can deliver Scat crank, rods, pistons, rings & bearings, as an already balanced kit for under 2 grand.

The Edelbrocks are a pretty decent head out of the box - essentially a replacement for a 428CJ in terms of flow and power. They have quite a bit of potential and they actually respond quite well to modest upgrades. The 3/8 valve stem size and the 30 degree seat they use are - in my OPINION - a mistake and a holdover from the 60's, and the factory valve job is rudimentary. Pretty much every engine made since then has used a 45 degree seat and an 11/32 or smaller stem - if you decide to upgrade the heads you should follow that well proven path.

The main clearances cited ealier are spot on - follow that advice. If you get in a jam for clearance you can use 351C +1 or -1 main bearings by adding tang notches to the block or grinding the tangs off of the bearings. The tang does nothing - it is an installation alignment aid only.

I agree on the Ersons - very nice parts for the money. They have quite a few in stock right now. Your chosen vendor should be able to supply them.

RICK LAKE · #31 (**permalink**) 08-17-2007, 06:32 AM

Barry R Barry the thread is 4 years old.

I was just lookin for the correct lenght of the push rods for my Shelby motor with a hydro roller cam and lifters, Comp cam, crane hydro roller lifters with a shelby head and block motor. The rockers are ersons. I have a spec of about 8.700 lenght. Motor and heads are apart. Rick Lake Get some rest Barry

Sizzler · #32 (**permalink**) 08-17-2007, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RICK LAKE

Sizzler Do you remember the correct lenght of the push rods in the FE motor pictures. The roller end is 5/16 ball and top end is 3/8 cup. Rick Lake

The pushrods were custom. For the block/head/rocker assembly combination. Because they were custom, I ordered an extra 8 pushrods.

Found them last night.

Using a TAPE MEASURE (not what was used when ordering), I get 8-9/16's long, 5/16 roller end, and the cup end actually looks more like 7/16".

But again, these pushrods were sized and ordered for my PARTICULAR combination of parts. You can buy adjustable pushrods to use to measure your combination.

RICK LAKE · #33 (**permalink**) 08-18-2007, 05:05 AM

Sizzler Thanks for the info. I was looking to save time. I have the pushrod tester kit. The motor is apart and this assembly is going to be a last minute thing. I was just looking to really get in the ball park with the lenght. Niether the heads or the motor block have been decked. I used a flat edge machinist plate and there is about a .002" raise around the sleeves for the cylinders. If the push rod. I am going to try and see if anyone has this setup for their motor with a hydro cam, crane lifters, and erson rockers on stock heads. At this time I was not going to worry about a .020" lenght problem. I am running a softer valve spring for the heads. Thank's again Rick L.



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