Dyno's, Setting the Record Straight

[Keithc8]

I would like to take a moment to set some people straight on dyno numbers about engines. We personaly use a Super Flow SF-901 dyno for our engines. These machines are like every other machine that is used, and it has to be calibrated. The dyno uses a torque link that is stretched a certain distance which then measures torque and converts it to HP. Our dyno has to stay accurate because we do engines for NHRA record holders and they know with-in a few hundreds how fast there car should go. You are not going to blow smoke up there ass because of there time slips.
I can tell you this that we have produced 725HP with a 428 Super Stock engine with 10.8 to 1 compression, 428 C8OE-N factory heads ported, solid roller camshaft, factory 735 vacume secondary carburetor and Dove single plane intake. This car just set the NHRA GT/A National Record at 9.06 going 146 MPH in a 3000lb car making it the quickest and fastest NHRA FE Super Stocker in history.
I feel I have the credentials to make the statements that I do and the records to back it up. I did not do many Cobra engines up untill about 2 years ago. I heard how several of these shops were ripping people's heads of with these weak 500HP FE's and charging 25,000.00 for them. I said this is a joke and we brought our technology to the regular FE guys and have built them a better piece and usually for a lot less money.
We do the best FE heads in the country and this is why we make the HP we do along with a few other tricks we know. So if this is raining on some peoples parade I am sorry. We have been doing killer FE's for years just not for the Cobra guys because I did not realize there was such a need for our services.
So I can tell you that my dyno is accurate and we do not lie to people about our engines. We try to under promise and over deliver. This is one reason we are now supplying the small block Fords for the new Shelby Elinore Mustangs.
Ask Red and Shawn LeBlanc how accurate our dyno is because they had to put out right at 745HP to set the national record that they set and we said the engine only made about 725, I guess it sealed up some after they ran it. I hope this answers some of the questions that have been ask about the HP numbers we produce. It is 2004 and not 1984. Thanks Keith Craft

[DonC]

Keith:
Thanks for the information about your dyno and how it functions.
I'm sure that any reputable engine builder looks at his products with the same pride in workmanship that you do.
When it comes to dyno numbers I hope that people are using them as a relative (repeat relative) scale, apples to apples. Take one of your dyno'd engines and put it on a different dyno in a different location and I'm sure the numbers would be different, just as one would expect. Would they be close? Probably. Would they be the same? Not likely. Have people been spoofed by inflated "dyno hp" numbers? I would expect one or two.
On the plus side our community is really pretty small and the builders who make extreme claims and don't deliver are quickly identified and can be avoided. It also provides us with a forum to which builders can address the entire community and get their information out to all, and I for one appreciate the builders who take the time to explain things to someone like me with a skull thickness that runs from dense to radiation proof.
DonC

[coyled]

Keith, If you dyno 'd a motor at say 700 hp, if you use the same parts again on another motor(same everything) do you sell the motor at the previously dyno'd motors hp level? Or does every motor have to be dyno'd to verify the hp level? I have been led to believe that the same parts and same motors can produce different hp levels? Just curious? Scott

[427Aggie]

Keith,

Thanks for the dyno information. Its really interesting for those of us in Dallas to see the dyno from the engine break in and the one from the chasis dyno at the shop in Dallas. Its amazing to see how bad some sidepipes are...or how good a certain carb is...really really neat.

Coyled....I know from a new engine standpoint you have a choice of dynoing or not...personally I would have the builder break it in on a dyno then there is no driving 500 miles under 3000 RPM to break things in...trust me been there done that won't do it again...

Matt

[Keithc8]

We like to dyno test every engine and if we tell the customer we are going to build him a turn key engine that will make so much HP we dyno test it. We have had engines that used the exact same parts but did not deliver the same HP. In these case if we garuanteed so much HP we have pulled the engine back down and look at the rings, maybe do more head work to get it up to the HP we said we would get. We will normally tell the customer something on the conservative side and then when we make more than that it is just a added bonus. For example we told James Baldwin 700HP and everything over that is just extra power. Under promise and over deliver. Thanks Keith

[ERA Chas]

Keith,
Please continue to post and share technology. Those doubtful of your numbers need not read your posts. To the critics, I say it's not just boastful advertising, but healthy competition among pro builders and we can all benefit. The Pop Hot Rodding Challenge is an an excellent example, and we learn more from this type of activity than possibly losing a professional contributor.
IMHO we gain a lot when a National Record-Holding builder shares info with us.
Keep 'em coming Keith.

[Doc]

I agree with ERA chas, Keith keep the info coming. I have always believed the FE could be made to do what you have done with them and I have been told it was not posible, you proved it is. It is inspiring every time you post those big numbers on these FE's and I for one like to read it. I know several super stock and stock racers and Keith is right there is no way is dyno could be off or he would be out of bussiness as DonC said and Keith has stood the test of time. I am just glad that someone of your stature and knowledge takes an intrest in these egines and takes the time to post on this site. Keith keep it coming.

Doc

[FFR428]

Keith, well said. G.

[Specialk]

If Keith was just some joe blow that nobody ever heard of, he would deserve to get heckled. But he's not:

http://www.nmraracing.com/news/032503/doug/default.htm

[RACER X #99]

Keith,

I seem to remember the name Kuntz and Craft from way back, so I know you are not some newbie engine builder trying to bring more work into your shop with inflated dyno numbers.

Even though you may no longer be associated with Mr. Kuntz I am sure your many years of engine building experience allows you to still produce the great engines that we have heard about in the past.

Too bad that somebody that did not buy from you has to attempt to tarnish your image.

Shame on them.

Cranky

[keithw]

I have bought 2 Keith Craft motors. He gave more HP and Torque than I asked for on both. Beautiful craftsmanship as well.

Feel free to use me as a reference Keith and Drew.

Keith Williams

[James Baldwin]

As you have seen from the other thread, I now have two in my garage. Another stong reference here.

Thanks Keith and Drew

[SFfiredog]

Hey Keith,

If the economy gets any worse here in California, can I come work for you?
The City (SF) wants to cut my pay AGAIN!!!!

--Mike

[bmalone]

Mike, the city should cut your pay. Every time I call you at the firehouse, we are talking FE's.

[66cobraboy]

Keith ,

I enjoy reading all of your post.
Keep them coming.

Eric

[Keithc8]

I want to say that I try to post only the engines that vary a little in parts or size from engines we have done in the past. I do not post on every engine we do by no means or I would have posted about 20 more FE's in the last 2 months. I find some of the engines we are now doing very neat. It is finally nice to have some good parts available for these engines. We are working on a 527C.I pump gas engine with hydraulic roller camshaft and a Victor intake. I think this would be a nice engine to post about but I would not want to make to many people mad. Good luck to all. Keith

[Brent Mills]

Keith, I set up a forum for your biz. You can post what you want and could even be about those smaller engines. In addition, if you want to answer questions in the FE forums, feel free.

[Jamo]

Several days ago, Brent went through the trouble of creating your very own forum within the Manufacturers' area, so that you could post to your heart's content about any and all of your products, and interested folks could read about them without interference...same as all of the other manufacturers (from Shelby American to Finish Line to Southern Automotive). It's a really nice thing that Brent provides, and it's only as good as you make it.

Simply go to the Forums list, scroll down to Manufacturers' Forums and then scroll down to Keith Craft (right before Kirkham).

[Jamo]

Well, I guess he knows now.

[feguy]

Keith,
I understand your frustration with the old school mentality that a lot of folks have in the way they build FEs. I have been dealing with this dynamic for many years. All I have to do nowdays is to start are drag car, describe what has been done to the motor, and its settled. When I got in business 4 years ago, I was amazed at the antiquated approach to FEs, especially with some of the car builders. But progress goes on. Lets all remember that back in the late 60's and early 70's , any medium or hi-riser 427 would kill a L88 427 Chevy. If Ford would have pursued the 427 after '72, FEs would have been a mass cult following all through the years!!
Tom