Dove Heads vs Edelbrock for 390 build

[PJS50]

Howdy all... I'm a newbie to this board but I have been watching it for a while and I have to give you all a big thumbs up...! Let me tell you what I have going on...
I have a '69 390 from an LTD that I had when I was younger (car got totaled by a drunk COP...Long story). I pulled the motor and kept it...52000 original miles. I wanna put it in an Everett Morrison kit.
I was planning on boring it .030 over just to get a good clean starting point. Forged pistons in the 10.5:1 range compression. I want to build it with a single 4 bbl carb, probably Holley (I know how to tune them well), in the 700-750 CFM range. Since I would like to shave weight and increase the flow I am committed to aluminum heads & matched intake. I have know about Dove for a long time and have always heard good thing about their heads. The "guy" at Dove recommended to me the Canadian Cobra Jet heads that they make (58cc or 72cc chambers?) which have valve sizes of 2.1" intake; 1.65 exhaust. He also recommended their single plane mainfold. On this board, a lot of you seem very pleased with the Edelbrock heads, which come with 2.09" intake and 1.66" exhaust valves, but I guess they can be made to take 2.19" intakes & 1.73" exhausts. I ran into an engine builder locally that I have swung a "deal" with to do the boring ect, and he is going to custom grind me a hyd. roller cam for the above.
First off, which set of heads flow better in the first place? Second, are the ports on either of these 2 brands pretty clean from a flow aspect or would it be worth it to buy them broken down and have "my guy" port them and put them together? Edelbrock doesn't offer a single plane manifold to hook up to these heads right? I have a Performer dual plane one right now, should I just shave the plenum and use it, or will a single plane be that much better like the Dove guy says? Ideally, I would be very happy if I could get 425-450HP out of this sucker and still be streetable. I was hoping to keep the redline at about 6500rpms so that I wouldn't have to worry too much about the 2 bolt lower and the nodular crank... Right?
It's been a while since I have owned a "go fast" car so I am trying to get back into the swing of things here... Any suggestions or comments would be greatly valued...
Thanks,
Pat
p.s. Along with the motor, I kept the tranny, it's a C-6 auto with the same mileage (they have never been un-mated) I would be willing to swap the trans for a Lakewood bell housing or a flywheel for my motor... email me if interested...

[SFfiredog]

Hello,

The Edelbrock heads are designed to work perfectly on the engine combination you are planning. The port sizing, valve sizing, and combustion chamber size is right on for a .030" 390. Edelbrock does make a single plane intake (Victor FE) but for your application and RPM range the Edelbrock Performer RPM is a much better choice. I think you will also be much happier with the Edelbrock's price, availablity, and quality. The stock block and crank are fine but I would invest in a set of aftermarket rods (Eagle, Scat, etc.) The price is so reasonable now that it almost isn't worth reconditioning the stock rods. Don't forget to do the oiling mods to the bottom end. With the correct cam and carb you should easily reach your horsepower goals.
HTH,
--Mike

[Sizzler]

My opinion only, I agree with most of the above recommendations, though I've heard of issues with Eagle rods (mostly in competitive situations though).

I don't agree with the oiling mods, though. Especially as described in Steve Christ's book. Ron Miller at FPP provided many of the parts used in the photography of Christ's book and much of the advice. He has since claimed that the oiling mods, particularly the drilling out of the main passage is excessive and can lead to block failure in that area.

You should realize that the oiling mods are generally for drag-racers who are launching hard and under constant acceleration after launch, which with front sump pans, can indeed lead to pumped-dry pans. These racers also restrict the oil flow up into the heads. For street use, with a good pump, you only should pay attention to chamfering the edges of the oil passages and, if you decide on the Edelbrock heads, making sure the oil drainback holes are open, and clear of any obstructions once everything is bolted down and the gaskets are in place. Also, the tin fingers over the rocker shafts DO help, especially in drainback; getting the oil back down to the pan. Painting the inside of the block doesn't really help, just make sure it's cleaned and smoothed.

I'd get a good T-type pan (Canton), I actually don't think much of windage trays either as it just slows the return of the oil and is only really effective for anything above your projected RPM range. Again, these are just my opinions. If you can get a good pan, maybe with some baffles and swinging doors if you're really really concerned; use a regular pump, or a HV pump because you 'must', don't use a combo HV/HP pump for street. Clear the passages, make sure the oil has a good path to and from the pan, and run.

Many, many, many FE people will disagree with my opinion, but what can I say? That's what I think, that's what I did. And it seems to work just fine.

[tj61]

I agree with you Sizzler on the oiling mods being unnecessary for the street, BUT if you use a solid lifter cam in your hyd block, make sure you do investigate doing the proper oiling mods. You will be rebuilding in about 500 miles (or less) if you don't.

You might also want to put you question on the FE forum at
www.fordfe.com

[6T5 Cbra]

You're not too far off from my setup.

How about this...

Everett-Morrison kit
390 FE
.030 over
Flat top pistons
Performer rpm heads
Performer rpm intake
Performer rpm cam
Hydraulic lifters
Dove roller rockers
Holley 770 (street avenger)
Lakewood scatter shield
Tremec 3550
9" rear end w/3.50 ratio
MSD w/Pro Billet (rev limited to 6k)

Horse power ??? I would guess about 400 but never had it on the dyno. I do know it's fast!

Gene




more pics

[bmercer]

Wow! This is one of the best threads that I've come across. After reading about all the manster engine people are putting in their Cobras, I was starting to feel embarrased about using a paltry 390 FE in my Johnex (from the guys that picked up the pieces when Johnex came apart). It gladdens my heart to see that I am not alone in putting together a moderate engine. I think that the direction we are heading with these will provide a reliable, streetable engine while still delivering while still delivering enough punch to get your adrenalin flowing.
The 390 that I'm having put together will have a Weiand single plane intake (very low profile) and the original heads from the "68 Galaxie with a little port and bowl work. My engine builder tends to be pretty conservative when it comes to bolt ons. His recommendation is to convert the distributor over to electronic trigger (Pertronix) and use a Ford blue grommet box for ignition control. He reasons that this setup will easily handle the RPM's that the FE will turn, and spare ignition units, while they rarely fail, are inexpensive and very readily available. He has made some oiling system mods, most importantly in the oil pump and filter adapter attachment area. He is also using a custom Canton pan with rear pickup. Compression is being kept in the 9.5:1 range to deal with today's pump gas and keep away from special fuels and octane boosters etc. The target for this engine is 450 HP. The dyno will let us know how we did.
I am building this car to drive, and the less hassles that I have that take away from the enjoyment of doing that, the happier I will be!
Seems that I'm not alone in that approach.

PJS50 - I'm in the same boat as you concerning go fast cars. Had lots when I was younger - then marriage - then kids - then mini-vans and sedans. It's been way too long!

[PJS50]

Wow... You guys are good...
I agree with you all about the oil mods...I was always under the impression that the chamfer job on the crank and the mains was a neccessity... possible oil journal alignment, because I've heard there have been some pretty scary FE castings found when the motors get broken down. I was getting a little confused when you go through some of these forums (not necessarily Club Cobra ones) and they start talking about blocking cam passages and opening up these passages ect... To me, blocking or restricting passages is kinda like "robbing Peter to pay Paul". Evenually, Peter will get tired of being screwed...ha ha ha
As far as oil pans, will the "Cobra" aluminum deep-sump pans fit in an A.C. without dragging on the ground? Are these pans any good or do aftermarkets work better?
I was definately going to upgrade the con-rods (which I have always heard were the weak spots in Hi-Po FE's). I was looking at the Eagles but with Sizzlers comment, maybe I will look into Skat..?
Does anybody make .010 over pistons for a 390? Like I said, my motor is very clean for its age and I was only going .030 over because I thought this was the first step up from stock bore...?
Are you guys that are running Edelebrock heads getting them ported or just running with the factory ports? Would it be worth it to increase the valve sizes to 2.19" intakes & 1.73" exhausts which Edelbrock says there is room for...? This may be overkill for fairly infrequent zips to 6500 rpms but what the heck. Do it RIGHT the first time is my motto...
I was going to use a Hyd. roller cam...which is something "new" to me... When I sold my last go-fast car ('68 Mustang coupe; 302 4speed) roller cams were just starting to really hit the market for hot rodders and I know of all the advantages of them I have just never played with them. I don't need to worry about any special oil mods with it right? My engine guy grinds his own cams so he says basically, "tell me what you want it to do..." Any suggestions on cam profile & lift? I don't want to have to fight the thing to idle but I would like as much power as possible. Somebody told me the lopey idle had more to do with lobe centers than duration/cam profile and to keep the centers at about 110 degrees for less lope...? While I understand the jargon, that's a bit over my head....
This intake mainfold thing has me bit confused. On my old 'Stang, I had a dual plane mainfold that I trimmed the plenum down about 3/4" to get a bit better high-rpm numbers. My engine guy, and the Dove guy that I talked to still recommended a single plane design for what I intend with this motor... THEY said that the real differences between the 2 are in the 1800rpm and down range and that the single plane kicks the dual planes butt from that point UP... Hell, 1800 rpms is barely much higher than idle, especially with a manual tranny. Is dual plane STILL the way to go for a redline at 7000 or less?
Gene, did you build your whole Everett Morrison kit? Would you recommend them? Will your AC with the 390 beat a Viper or Z06 Vette when the light turns green? Are the Tremec trannys TOUGH or are the Richmond 5 speeds a better deal?
So Many questions...I feel like I'm getting married all over again...!
AAAARRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!! Thanks for all of the help guys...

[SFfiredog]

The internet can be a source of great, useful information. In turn, it can also be a sorce of gossip, rumor, half-truths, and exaggerations. I only give suggestions that are based from my actual, repeated experience. I try not not to post "I heard...", or "my buddy knows a guy who's brother did...", unless I know it is a solid fact. As for me, I was a factory trained Ford mechanic for many years and I have built more hi-performance and racing FEs than I care to remember. I have several FEs that I'm building for customers right now, all 427s and one 428. I will attempt to clarify my suggestions and disspell some untruths.
1) Single plane vs dual plane.
I have used the Dove S/P intake. It makes great power from 4500 to 8500 rpm. It is very big and tall.
I can't verify this about an E-M Cobra but I know it will not fit under the hood of most of the other Coba chassis with even the thinnest air cleaner. The Edelbrock Victor is a tiny bit shorter but still won't fit without cutting the carb pad down. Dove is probabley trying to sell you that intake because it is the only 1-4V intake they make. The E-brock RPM intake is designed to work best between 2500 and 6500 RPM. To give you an idea of how well the E-brock RPM intake works I swapped a ported and re-worked Offenhauser Port-o-sonic single plane intake (THE 1-4V intake to use for a long time) with an out-of-the-box E-brock RPM.
The car was a Thunderbolt replica with 428. We swapped the manifolds the same day at the track and it picked up 2 tenths and 1.5 MPH (11.00s to 10.80s from 118 to almost 120 MPH) THe 60 ft times dropped from 1.6s to 1.5s. Engine rpm was 6200. I think you will be happiest with the Performer RPM.
2) FE oil system mods.
In PJS50's original post he stated that he wants a 390 capable occasional bursts to 6500 PRM. In a later post he mentions a 7000 RPM reline. This is 427 RPM territory. All 427s have the oil pump passages enlarged from the factory from the puny 3/8" to 7/16". Hell, a 289 has 7/16" oil passages! That is a .062 enlargement. .031" on all sides. If your block oil passage can't take .031" without breaking thru you have more serious problems than oil control. I'm not asking you to cut your block in half and weld it back together again, the mods can be done by anyone, with hand tools and that has the ability to rebuild an engine, in about an hour. Enlarge and deburr the oil pump passages, line up the passages in the main bearing holes, and clean up and deburr the oil drainback holes. Make ABSOLUTLEY
sure that the grooves in the cam bearing journals are clean and free of all obstructions. If you plan on a mechanical cam, block off the lifter bore passages. On street engines I normally do not restrict the oil to the rocker arms. Street engines idle a lot. Race engines don't. The extra oil in the top end keeps the valvetrain well oiled at idle speeds and keeps the valvesprings cool. As long as you have an 8 or 9 qt pan, oil volume is not a concern. While on the subject of oil pans, the only reason to run a front sump pan is because you HAVE to for clearance. On a Cobra chassis,
there is nothing but room and one is foolish not to take advantage of a well designed middle or rear sump pan. Armando's
(check search for info) makes a beautiful mid-sump road race Cobra style pan for about the same price as a Canton or Milodon pan.
3) Connecting rods:
Eagle and Scat have been getting a bum rap because they are made in China. Eagle rods are forged in China and machined in the USA. The Scat rod is all Chinese made. I checked my records and in the last 18 months I have bought 14 sets of Eagle rods and 3 sets of Scat rods. One difference I have found between the 2 is the clearances and balance weights of the Eagles are more consistant than Scat. The last Set of Eagles I did where within 2 grams thru the set of 8 The Scats are ususally twice that. One thing that is common between the 2, and I think has caused the biggest problem for the uninformed, is all of the clearances (pin fit, rod bearing journal and side clearance) are all at the MINIMUM
clearance spec, if not tighter. I never have been able to use one out of the box. To me, this is a good thing. I can always take material out easier than putting it in. Example: Joe Schmo buys a rotating assembly kit from XWZ Speedhouse. The kit is complete, crank, rods,pistons,pins, rings bearings, etc. He assumes because the kit is from one place and everything is brand new, he can just slam it together in his new block. It goes togther, into the car, and the first night at the drags he seizes a rod bearing and kicks a coneecting rod thru the block. He dissassmebles the engine, sees the broken rod, and says "Those cheap commie bastard Chinese rods are junk!" It's all cause and effect. The broken rod is the effect but the cause was insufficent bearing clearance. I and the machine shop I use have used dozens of Eagle rods in high RPM and high horsepower engines and have never had one fail due to a faulty connecting rod.
I'll write more when my fingers uncramp
--Mike

[Phantasea427]

I'm using Eagle H-beam rods and have never had any problems at 600 Horsepower and I'm sure Mike and some of his customers are making a lot more horsepower and more rpm's. I'm crossing the line at 6700 to 6800 rpms and the engine is built to go 7500 and I think I exceeded that recently when I broke the drive shaft and hit the reve limiter

As far as DOVE vs Edelbrock heads I can't give you any advice on the Edelbrocks although I have heard good things as well as bad, mostly bad things about the assembled heads. I'm running DOVE CCJ heads and they work wonderfully!! Either way you go you will need to have the heads smoothed out at a minimum, remove all the rough castings. Buy them bare and have a good machinist mildly or wildly port them, your choice, as well as assemble the heads with all of the matched components from the cam of your choice. I prefer solids over hydraulics myself and would actually be running a Roller if I could have afforded the extra expense at the time.

BTW I wouldn't install 2.19/1.72 valves in the heads if you're going to run them on a 390. Valve shrouding becomes an issue and you won't be dissapointed with the 2.09/1.66 valve sizes with your combination.

Good luck

[PJS50]

Thanks for the info Mike...
So, If I go with the Eagle rods (or any for that matter), you recommend that I have my "guy" machine the Pin & Crank bearing journals or at least check the diameters to see if they are to spec? You have also had to mill the rods for thickness? Doesn't this throw a their weights off quite a bit or if you have to do 1, you do them all?
Excuse me if I sound like a retard... I have re-built 4 or 5 engines down to the block in my day, but I never really did it to where I was replacing vital parts like con-rods in their entirety... Bearings, camshafts and such don't scare me... Like I said before, I just want to do this thing "right"...
I hear what you are saying about the oil passages... Is there plenty of room in my block to open them like you recommend or is it one of those things "maybe, or maybe not..."?
I don't mean to beat the Edelbrock Head thing to death but are the "factory" ports on them pretty good. Or, are they just a good starting point for a needed "port Job"... in your opinion..?

[A Snake]

Only one note here. To get 450 "real" hp from the 390, it will take a cam, carb and compression combination that will make the car decidedly unpleasant on the street.

With the mild specs I'm seeing here, I would suggest figuring 350-375 is more like it. That's still a lot of power in a 2200# car.

Oil pans? Look into Aviaid. They make a 9 qt "t" style FE pan designed for a Cobra. They made the same pan for original Cobras. I used one on my 427SO. See pics in my gallery.

My SO made just over 480hp on the dyno with 11:1 comp, 916cfm Holley (Carb Shop), Shelby Sidewinder and .560/580 lift cam on 108 degree lobe centers, Dove MR heads with TP sized valves and Dove roller rockers. Granted that number was through mufflers, but still, 450 from a 390 is reaching a bit, unless it is a drag race piece.

Yes, to use hyd lifter block with solids, the lifter gallery oil supply must be cut off. With my engine, my builder recommended restricting oil to the rockers, which we did and I experienced no problems.

BTW, if that 69 block is the ribbed variety, it might take an overbore out to 406 cid. Have it sonic tested for core shift first.

Al

[Sizzler]

You seem concerned about the Edelbrocks' flow characteristics out of the box. Most people seem happy with them. Minor port matching seems to be a common thing. You could send them to Kuntz and have them do a full-on $4,500 port job, but otherwise, they seem ok, out of the box.

You talk about getting a custom Hydraulic roller cam ground.
If you're doing hydraulic roller lifters, 6500 will be your absolute redline, don't even think you're going to 7000. If you go that route, and for a street engine I don't think it's a bad route, you should buy bare Edelbrock heads and do the spring, valve and retainer selections yourself. Do spring cups. I'd do titanium valves and retainers. Hollow push rods if you can. Anything to reduce the weight of the valve train. Hydraulic roller lifters for the FE are heavy. As for the big valves, with a .030 over 390 bore, you could possibly get into shrouding issues so I'd just stick with the given sizes.

The big thing with Edelbrock heads is drainback holes, getting the proper tin drainback covers (not all versions fit, long-fingered ones are best), spring cups, and I had some steel inserts put in over the head bolt holes to give a good purchase for the head bolts and get a good torque reading with. Otherwise, the whole point of them is good flow, they're based on medium riser heads though the valves are spaced differently (and better).

As for issues with Eagle rods, it's the fit yes, but it's also the bolts that come with them. Little known is that you can 'upgrade' the bolts through Eagle, but they're pricey. When you come right down to it though, the stock FE rods are fine, even for hot street use. Just recondition them carefully, spot-face them and use some good bolts.

As for throwing the weight of a rod 'off', they usually can be made to match by judicious milling in other areas of the rods, in fact they usually come with an extra pad of metal cast on that's there for this reason.

Finally, I haven't seen one bad thing said about Dove products in this thread. I suggest you search on 'Dove' in other threads.

[chopper]

Ditto what Sizzler says about checking on other threads for problems with Dove equipment. Several threads have been posted here documenting individual problems with Dove components. I had problems with Dove rockers and will never purchase any more equipment from them. I am running the Edelbrock heads and haven't had any problem with them at all. They were installed by the builder (Southern Automotive) and I've been pleased with them.

[SFfiredog]

Hi Sizzler,
I agree with you 100% on your post above. The tin splash shields (with fingers) sandwiched under the rocker stands is a good idea if you can get them to fit. Most of the complete aftermarket shaft assemblies (Erson, Dove T&D, Jesel) will not work with the shields.
The E-brock heads are pretty good right out of the box port and valve pocket wise. There's not much "clean up" you can do without resorting to a full port job. and for an engine under 400ci It's just not worth it. The 2.19/1.75 vavle combo would not only suffer from serious valve shrouding but the intake valve won't even clear the cylinder wall. When I get a set of complete E-brocks I always dissassemble them, check the valve guide clearance and valve seat consentricity, surface the heads, hand lap the valves and check the seat width. I also use a higher quality valve guide seal and depending on the cam specs, assemble the heads with either the supplied springs (which aren't bad on the FE head, 120lbs on the seat) or new springs to match the cam installed at the proper spring height.
The Eagle rods are supplied with an ARP 8740 rod bolt. They are not bad, and are equal to most aftermarket replacement bolts for stock application rods. If high HP or RPMs are expected, an upgrade to the ARP L19 rod bolt is a good, but costly ($200) requirement. I recomend that a rod bolt stretch gauge be used whenever tightening a rod bolt. I have found as much as a 12 ft.lb difference between different batches of the same rod bolt for a given stretched length (usually .00059" to .00062"),
--Mike

[SFfiredog]

Originally posted by PJS50


Thanks for the info Mike...
So, If I go with the Eagle rods (or any for that matter), you recommend that I have my "guy" machine the Pin & Crank bearing journals or at least check the diameters to see if they are to spec? You have also had to mill the rods for thickness? Doesn't this throw a their weights off quite a bit or if you have to do 1, you do them all?
Excuse me if I sound like a retard... I have re-built 4 or 5 engines down to the block in my day, but I never really did it to where I was replacing vital parts like con-rods in their entirety... Bearings, camshafts and such don't scare me... Like I said before, I just want to do this thing "right"...
I hear what you are saying about the oil passages... Is there plenty of room in my block to open them like you recommend or is it one of those things "maybe, or maybe not..."?
I don't mean to beat the Edelbrock Head thing to death but are the "factory" ports on them pretty good. Or, are they just a good starting point for a needed "port Job"... in your opinion..?

Your quite welcome!
I have all this information crammed in my head and I like to share what I have learned over the years with fellow gearheads. If at times I sound a bit "overzealous" it is only because the passion of doing things right is always pounding in me.
As far as bearing clearances are concerned, assemble your new connecting rods with the bearings installed a torqued to the proper specs then use a dial bore gauge and get all 8 readings. Subtract .0024" to .0026" (your rod bearing clearance) then tell your crank grinder this is the dimension you want the crank ground to. If your crank is already refinished, you can remove .00005" to .00010" from the inside of the rod on a re-sizing machine to get your clearances. I do not like to remove more than .00010 from a bearing journal because it can affect the set or "crush" of the bearing. Do the same for the main bearings.
I like .0027" to .0030" main bearing clearance on cast iron blocks with cast iron main-caps. Setting side clearance is easy and should be done before final balancing.
The oil passage enlargement became a problem when builders decided if some is good, more is better and opened up the oil holes to 1/2' and larger and got carried away with the blending and deburring of the hole openings. 7/16" with simple, clean blending of the holes is all that's neccessary. I have never had a problem with an FE block done this way.
--Mike

[SFfiredog]

nt

[SFfiredog]

Originally posted by A Snake


Oil pans? Look into Aviaid. They make a 9 qt "t" style FE pan designed for a Cobra. They made the same pan for original Cobras. I used one on my 427SO. See pics in my gallery.

Al

Hi A Snake,

Here is an interesting photo. One pan is an Armando's, the other is an Aviad. The only difference is the sticker. And for that sticker you will have to pay over $200 more Of course, I found this out about a week after I got MY Aviad pan
--Mike

[SFfiredog]

nt

[Jon Miller]

Hi PJS,

I've got an E-M car, 428SCJ, Toploader, Jag IRS that is still under construction......six years and counting.

I went with the Edelbrock heads, water pump, and a 1960's vintage Edelbrock 2x4 intake which I may end up topping with a pair of their carbs. Since I was not building a race car, my only mods were to polish the OUTSIDE of each and every of the above parts....... The motor looks great and I am quite sure that the car will be fast enough for anything that I would want to do on the street.

As for the E-M, I'm very happy with the quality and factory support, when they answered the phones that is.......They are not exactly in business at the moment , but if you can find an unfinished kit(as I did), or wait for them to re-open, I would not hesitate to buy one.

I am at a bit of a loss as far as why you would want a custom ground cam. When I did my cam shopping I ended up with a spread sheet of 30 plus cams available for the FE. It would seem to me that any of the big cam companies would have spent far more time and money engineering their products to do whatever you want, than the guy you are using. No offence intended, it just sounds a little strange to me.......

Good luck with your project!
-Jon Miller

[wtcobra]

Armando worked at and made the pans for Aviad for years. I had Armando make a custom pan for me a few years ago so I could run an external Peterson oil pump. He did a great job. A picture of my pan is on Enzo's Finishline web site. I went through Enzo because he does business with Armando, speaks Spanish better, and because he is a friend.

Wayne Turpin