Genesis 427 side oiler

[Commander]

could it be that his experience with one of the new modulars was because they are so undersquare? there isn't nearly as much force applied against the side walls as there would be in an engine (like those from the 60's) that were squarer with lower rod/stroke ratios.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by Woodz428

I ran an Automotive machine shop for several years in the late 60s into the mid 70s and again in the later 80s. It is my recollection that most of the wear is at the TOP of the cylinder( that's why the lip). The heat ,etc. makes the wear more prominent at the top. Piston skirts of aluminum are going to wear themselves away much faster than it could ever wear the wall. That's why they went to aluminum from the cast iron they used to use for pistons. The rings, always under extreme tension to keep a seal, are much harder and do much wearing. If you examine a worn cylinder closely, you see that the wear starts at the top and tapers off to less wear as you go down, hence the word taper. The wear in a cylinder, while not exclusively in the ring travel area, is mostly confined to that area. I will credit some of the newer ring coatings for some of the reduction in wear also. But the low tension rings have more overall impact on wear reduction.

Hard to argue with your logic. I know the top of the cylinder is where you get the ridge line (still at original bore above where the ring stops at TDC). What I have seen (granted much less experiance than you) is that the wear at the top of the bore is even, as the bore is still fairly round even though it is worn. As you go down the bore, the wear is not even. The cylinders are out of round. Very little wear when you measure in a line drawn front to back of the engine across the cylinders. However when you measure perpendicular to that line there is much more wear. The wear will also be on the side of the cylinder that the rod thrusts the piston into, if you measure the radious from the center of the bore. I base this on a 327 375 HP Vette engine that the bore was worn 0.030" in the perpendicular plane, with 0.025" of that on the thrust side. The shop said I would have to bore it 0.050" just to get the cylinders round again. This engine had seen a lot of WOT high RPM duty. So it may have had much more side thrust wear than the average family car. In fact when I think about it, almost every engine I pulled appart, back in my puppy days, had been abused and ran hard.

It would be logical that the maximum wear from the side thrust caused by the rod angle would be part way down, where the crank is turned 90 deg from TDC. I had assumed the piston caused this wear, but your arguement that the piston is a soft aluminum and rings are harder makes perfect sense. I have to agree that the rings are doing the wearing in the bore. I said the bottom of the bore was out of round, when I should have said partway down the bore.

I will point out that there is a ridge line at the top of the cylinders where the rings never travel, however I have never seen one at the bottom of a cylinder. The compression rings are designed to allow cylinder pressure to go under the ring and push the ring outward into the bores (I have not explained this well as it if fairly compicated to explain). There is more pressure in the cylinder when the piston is at the top than when it is at the bottom. Therefore the rings push harder against the cylinder wall at the top than at the bottom. I believe this is why there is no ridge at the bottom. This factor, I suspect is significantly more than the tension in the rings at WOT. I had originally discounted the lower tension, but less tension would make a bigger differance at idle and low power, where most family cars spend the vast majority of their time. So you have convinced me that the low tension rings has made a difference. Also this supports your statement that your experiance showed the most wear at the top of the bore. The side thrust wear may not show up in mildly operated engines.

I looked it up and the 4.6 Modular, and the sleeves are ductile iron as others have stated. I was flat wrong, when I said steel. However, I do have to wonder if ductile iron is more wear resistant than cast iron. I think Barry_R indicated it is, but I'm not certain that was what he ment.

Thanks to all for the conversation. I learned quite a bit.

[KM480]

Precision Oil Pumps of Madera CA is another source for Genesis blocks, iron and aluminum. As well as blueprinted oil pumps and shaft rocker systems.

Prices might be the best.

[blykins]

Could be longer rod lengths....less of an angle and less of a sideload on the cylinder wall.

[Barry_R]

The answer is actually "all of the above"...

Newer engines have cast in place ductile iron liners - decidedly better material than old block were made of. They often have a "spiny" or textured OD for retention in the casting so they're not as easy to replace as you think.

Newer rings are either ductile iron or steel with a plasma-moly face - - much like racing rings and very durable.

Computer controlled timing and mixture greatly reduced detonation and fuel wash - - major causes of accelerated bore wear.

Hypereutectic pistons are common in OE engines, and will last a very long time due to the hardness of the silicon entrapped in the alloy.

All of this is due to mileage and emission requirements....and the need for them to comply over 50,000-100,000 miles.

[Excaliber]

I missed this thread! Had to travel to the mainland on short notice and didn't have internet access (REMOTE location).

Now where was I...

Oh yeah, as long as it's 'only a replica' why not run a VW motor? the argument of only being a replica just doesn't cut it for me. We all have different standards of whats acceptable, thats cool. Just don't get to carried away.

My side oiler is a later model hydraulic or solid lifter block, a 'service block'. My friend has a genuine date coded 1965 vintage side oiler block. Like JDogs block, I'm jealous! I would love to have the really really real block. But I'm doing the best I can with what I got.

[Archrms]

Excalibur,

I just find it funny how some people get all fired up about authenticity when the car itself is not an authentic 1960's vintage Cobra. However, everyone is entitled to their opinions and should equip their cars with what makes them happy.

That being said, after much debate and input from all of you on Club Cobra, I just purchased a 1968 427 side oiler with dual quads for my car that has yet to be ordered. Maybe my priorities are a little backwards, but at least I know the car will definitely have plenty of go-power, and the looks to back it up. Thanks to everyone out there who replied to my inquiries about engines and helped me get to this point. As soon as I figure out how to post pictures here, I'll put them up.

[Carnut427]

Originally Posted by Archrms

...I just purchased a 1968 427 side oiler with dual quads for my car that has yet to be ordered. Maybe my priorities are a little backwards...

Congrats, Archrms, this is really one area where you can't go wrong either way...and I bought my motor & trans before I ordered my kit too...

Dan

[Excaliber]

Your priorities seem just fine to me!

Excellent choice going with a real side oiler.

[Lowell W]

ARCHRMS,

You'll love this car regardless which engine you put in it.

Your priorities seem just fine to me.

Excellent choice going with a real Superformance!

Lowell

[sidewaysinthird]

Archrms,

I ran a couple of 427so blocks in a Mustang when I was much younger and all these nice pretty new blocks weren't available as yet. I still have one left over and it will not be going in the ERA. Even a good original block will require lots of cash to get it right. I'm going with the aluminum version myself. I love it when someone asks a simple question here and everyone chimes in. Almost all of these guys have lots of experience one way or the other with these blocks. Its always a wealth of information that you couldn't find anywhere else. Thanks guys, no kidding!

Mike

[ceslaw]

Finished my Everett Morrison Generation IV and registered it about three weeks ago. We have a Genesis 427, which we picked up about one year ago. Have driven it over 450 miles to date. Both the engine and the car have performed flawlessly. It starts with minimal cranking. We let it warm up before driving, given the 20-50 oil and air temperatures hovering around freezing for that last month. (Yes, we have a top and a heater). Once warmed it idles with the characteristic lump around 950 RPM. Pulls really well above 3000 RPM, but cruises well at 75 MPH in fifth gear around 2200 RPM. Although there were a few oil drips initially, the seals have apparently seated and there are no leaks whatsoever at the present time.



We dressed the engine with a turkey basket and original style expansion tank to add to the 'original' look. We are partial to the black / silver look, opting for a black distribuor cap on the MSD distributor and a black coil. We even opted for K & N oil filters, not necessarily because of their quality, but because they were white and the labels easily removed, thus fitting in with our monochromatic theme!



Cruising at a farily steady 70 MPH, 30 degree air temperature, for 100 miles in fifth gear running about 2100 RPM yielded about 12 miles per gallon this past weekend. Hey, no one ever said this was an economy car!

So to answer the original post question: I would have no reservations about the Genesis iron block 427.

[Archrms]

ceslaw,
The engine looks great. What kind of numbers does the engine produce for HP and Torque?

[ceslaw]

The Genesis 427 dyno results showed a peak horesepower of 505 at 5300 RPM. The torque peaked at 545 at 3900, but was over 500 pounds from 3000 to 5300. It has plenty of 'grunt.'

[Archrms]

What are the Genesis blocks going for (ballpark)? - there is no pricing info on their website.

[Burgs]

$3495 for steel, $4495 for aluminum,... I think. For aluminum, you may find the Pond block is easier to find on hand.

[Archrms]

Thanks for the quick reply Burgs!

[ceslaw]

Ceslaw,
What are the specs of your engine; stroke, heads, cam, & carb?
Thanks

Response:
Specs on the Genesis 427: 4.250 bore; 4.125 stroke; 468 c.i. Holley 850 CFM carb. Edelbrock heads and Performer RPM intake manifold.

Car has been registered for one month and we have nearly 800 trouble free miles. (most of that driving has been in 40 - 50 degree weather). Engine runs great. Solid. Minimal oil drips. Have set the idle around 900 RPM. Starts instantly when cold, let it warm up a bit before driving, then it idles well. No complaints.

[JRoss]

I have had my Genesis for about 3 1/2 years. I have one of the early blocks and have had no trouble with it. 5000+ miles in Dallas 100 degree days and rush hour and the car runs like a champ. I am running 10.7:1 compression on 93 pump gas. It is a Keith Craft stage 2 build and makes 649hp at the fly wheel and 511 at the ground (dyno graph in my gallery if you care).

So far I have been very impressed and can highly recommend Genesis.

John