ignition grief

[rokndad]

Hey Dave,

I know the feeling. If I hadn't spent four consecutive frustrating weekends trying to figure out my spark issue, and then after replacing the 6AL box first (a waste of $235 but now I have a spare) and all the hassle that goes with mounting it under the dash, I would have thought I was nuts too. I poured relentlessly over all that MSD stuff and couldn't find any reference to gapping that stupid thing. Don't sweat it, the guy tells me something is on its way....and agree. It wouldn't be the first time one of those techs is a couple tacos shy of a combo plate. Happy motoring!

Tom

[Traveller]

I know this is not a constructive comment, but whats wrong with a standard Ford distributor and a Pertronics module? I've never heard of anyone having trouble with them. Sure, MSD has a rev limiter and produces more spark, but is it really worth the headache?

[John Martin]

You have heard it here first , a pertronix went bad on one of the guys cars by me.
(I liked the Dual points I had , they did'nt work good at the higher rpms running wide open )
I had the MSD pick up go bad in mine , and had a MSD pick up go bad in friends car .

[Scufty]

Well picked up a new mag pickup today ..let ya know in a few if that was the deal or not ...either way 20 bucks well spent I figure

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

Ron,points are like Richard Simmons entering a UFC fight..what's the point?(pun intended)
MSD makes good stuff,their customer service is good to great.I have 6AL's on everything except the Cummins and my SCCA car.

I consider this the most over-looked issue when using an MSD. People act as though you have to run an electronic dist. if you are using an MSD and nothing could be farther off base. Running a points based dist. is actually a more reliable system than most electronics for one simple reason. When used as the trigger for the MSD (which is all that part of the dist is anyway) then the points are only carrying a few milliamps and at that current level the rubbing block will be worn out about the same time the points are. When used with an MSD many things that we used to have to worry about with points are long gone. Gone is worrying about point dwell angle and gap (they just have to open and close, doesn't matter how much), gone is worrying about condenser failure, gone is worrying about point wear and deposits. While I'm at it; gone is worrying about stupid carbon contacts, gone is worrying about fried pick-ups, gone is worrying about rotor gap, gone is worrying about being able to test an electronic dist on the road. This is starting to sound pretty good isn't it? Well it gets better. With the points set-up you can bypass the MSD box with the supplied jumper wires on the road and limp home on points and condenser should the box go by by. I know what you're thinking now; "oh but the bearings and build quality of the billet dist is so much better than an old points dist” Bull ****! Now I'm not saying go get a dist from a 63 Falcon and put that puppy to the test. I am saying that there are millions of hi performance points dist around that will work just as well. For instance; on my much modified Boss302 I use an Accel dual point with only one set of points hooked up. Don't need the extra dwell from a set of duel points because they don't control coil saturation with the MSD, the MSD box does. The points just tell it when to fire. The reliability factor is just so stupid simple it's hard to ignore. When BDR687's 428 fires to life, it's going to be with an old Mallory dual point and MSD 6AL box.

Steve

[Cobrabill]

Points are antiquated pieces of junk and have no business being in a modern car or a car someone is trying to get the most out of.
I don't like wasting my time tuning the car only to have the tune go out the window because the dwell is like a yo-yo because of point bounce.

And no where did i say the billet distributor is the "be all & end all".Case in point:

www.davessmallbodyheis.com

[rokndad]

I think some of the bad rap MSD has been getting is from frustrated old schoolers, like me, getting reacquainted with the shady tree mechanics we were used to from the 60's not having really wrenched on anything much since then. Let alone a high performance engine which has double the HP of anything we ever worked on before. I have to admit, I was used to points, rub block grease, internal condensors and the like. The electronics are a whole new ball game. And now that I've figured most of it out, it seems a little simpler and less complex than the old school stuff ( I have no clue what goes on in the 6AL box and don't want to know).

I kept the MSD because it's what was on the engine when I bought it, and I had heard a lot of good things about it as well as the poorer remarks. After having replaced the major components, most of which more than likely didn't need replacement due to my learning curve, I've finally got 98% of it figured out, and the car starts great every time. I think I'll keep the system for now.

[Power Surge]

Originally Posted by Traveller

I know this is not a constructive comment, but whats wrong with a standard Ford distributor and a Pertronics module? I've never heard of anyone having trouble with them. Sure, MSD has a rev limiter and produces more spark, but is it really worth the headache?

That's what I run in my car, an original 427 dist with a Pertronix. Works perfect so far.

I have seen every type and every brand of ignition fail. It's just going to happen. I've had bad luck with Mallory and Crane in the past, so I have used MSD for years. And I've had my share of problems with MSD as well, but still prefer them.

Also, I have come across ignition systems not being properly wired MANY times. I think this is a common cause of failure. Many systems require ballast resistors, especially on older cars, and the proper ohms coils. If you don't do that right, it will still work, but you'll damage the electronics over time. I see this quite often.

[rokndad]

So Scrufty,

What's the verdict? Any progress with the new pickup?

[Scufty]

well...I wished I would have checked here a week ago...sure enough ..Mag pickup! thanks for all the input guys. Now if I could just figure out how tires become unbalanced sitting in my garage all winter? ( not on car )

[TButtrick]

You can read about my MSD failure here

[Cobrabill]

Here's my MSD failures over the past 12 years:

Pick-up module.A piece of crap got underneath and when the screws were tightened,it acted as a fulcrum and cracked the magnet.It eventually failed.(that's story all by itself)Replaced and no more issues.

That's all folks!!

[ERA649]

I bought my third MSD magnetic pick up - first one lasted 4500 miles, second one 1000 miles, third one ?? . I never saw gapping instructions with the installation material. What is the the recommended gap?

[undy]

http://www.msdignition.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15

[Rick Parker]

lovehamer:

The rubbing block still wears and alters the time it opens the points and thus the firing of the box. That's one of the big issues with points, not just the contact wear.

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

Points are antiquated pieces of junk and have no business being in a modern car or a car someone is trying to get the most out of.
I don't like wasting my time tuning the car only to have the tune go out the window because the dwell is like a yo-yo because of point bounce.

Let’s see, where to start with this; #1 most of us aren’t tuning on the razor’s edge so the most out of it thing is just silly for most of us. #2 Last I looked your car has an FE; what are you spinning that puppy too in order to get point bounce? I’m quite sure that I’ve had my Boss302 wound tighter that that 427 will ever wind and I’ve done it with points and no problems. #3 When using the MSD box the points only act as a trigger so dwell is not a factor.

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

Here's my MSD failures over the past 12 years:
Pick-up module.A piece of crap got underneath and when the screws were tightened,it acted as a fulcrum and cracked the magnet.It eventually failed.(that's story all by itself)Replaced and no more issues.

And it still wouldn’t have happened if it had had a good set of points.

Originally Posted by ERA649

I bought my third MSD magnetic pick up - first one lasted 4500 miles, second one 1000 miles, third one ?? . I never saw gapping instructions with the installation material. What is the the recommended gap?

And a set of points in place of the magnetic pick up would render that moot.

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

lovehamer:
The rubbing block still wears and alters the time it opens the points and thus the firing of the box. That's one of the big issues with points, not just the contact wear.

Come on man, a BIG point? How long does it take for a rubbing block to wear to the point where it makes an appreciable difference in timing? ERA649 has gone through 3 pick ups in 5500 miles, one set of points triggering an MSD wouldn’t have to be adjusted for another 10 miles and then they wouldn’t need to be replaced. While I consider Bill’s “Points are antiquated pieces of junk and have no business being in a modern car or a car someone is trying to get the most out of.” rant to be just that, a rant with no basis in reality. If one is turning 8k RPM regularly, or they are actually in money type competition, then I understand wanting something more precise than points. However, I consider this whole thread to be an indictment of the “ooh, ooh, I want something new and shiny regardless of how good it works” mentality.

Steve

[Cobrabill]

1)

Originally Posted by lovehamr

Let’s see, where to start with this; #1 most of us aren’t tuning on the razor’s edge so the most out of it thing is just silly for most of us. #2 Last I looked your car has an FE; what are you spinning that puppy too in order to get point bounce? I’m quite sure that I’ve had my Boss302 wound tighter that that 427 will ever wind and I’ve done it with points and no problems. #3 When using the MSD box the points only act as a trigger so dwell is not a factor.


2)And it still wouldn’t have happened if it had had a good set of points.



3)And a set of points in place of the magnetic pick up would render that moot.



4)Come on man, a BIG point? How long does it take for a rubbing block to wear to the point where it makes an appreciable difference in timing? ERA649 has gone through 3 pick ups in 5500 miles, one set of points triggering an MSD wouldn’t have to be adjusted for another 10 miles and then they wouldn’t need to be replaced. While I consider Bill’s “Points are antiquated pieces of junk and have no business being in a modern car or a car someone is trying to get the most out of.” rant to be just that, a rant with no basis in reality. If one is turning 8k RPM regularly, or they are actually in money type competition, then I understand wanting something more precise than points. However, I consider this whole thread to be an indictment of the “ooh, ooh, I want something new and shiny regardless of how good it works” mentality.

Steve

First off,Steve,thanks for providing me such a target rich enviroment.

1)Your car had point bounce-You were loosing HP/torque & milage-despite what you "felt".Your timing was fluctuating and your engine was not performing optimally.


Your comment about triggering the MSD with points not effecting timing is,100%, catagorically FALSE.

2)So?I would have lost HP,mileage & driveability along the way.No thanks.

3)See above response

4)If your car has gone thru 3 pick-ups something else is OBVIOUSLY wrong.Loose connection betweeen the wrench & the ground-maybe?

If my rant wasn't based in reality then every car made today would still be running points-they're NOT.

If you think that points don't float untill 8,000rpm,you really need to go back to school.

Electronic ignition isn't new & shiny,it first appeared in the mid-60s.

[lovehamr]

Originally Posted by Cobrabill

Your comment about using the MSD box with points doesn't effect timing is,100% catagorically FALSE.

Um, when did I say that? I said that "dwell" wasn't affected. You do know that there is a difference, right? Does that make the above statement 100% catagorically goofy? Or were you referring to my saying that it would take a long time for rubbing block wear to make an appreciable difference in timing? In which case the above statement would merely be lacking in accuracy and understanding. Man, this is like watching a liberal foist words into other people's mouths. I didn't say that I didn't have any point bounce, what I said was that I had no problems. And I believe that this may illustrate what everyone’s problem seems to be with this line of thought; you see, my point is NOT that points are a more precise or better way to trigger the MSD box. My point is that points are a reliable and still viable way in which to do this because most of us would never feel the difference anyway. Of course I know that your sensitive booty would pick up on those points in your distributor right away as you put on that second coat of wax!

By the by old boy; the next time you feel like showing of that big brain you may want to use spell check.

Steve

[ERA649]

Cobrabill,
If your car has gone thru 3 pick-ups something else is OBVIOUSLY wrong.Loose connection betweeen the wrench & the ground-maybe?
I know something is wrong but what exactly is it?

[Cobrabill]

Originally Posted by lovehamr

Um, when did I say that? I said that "dwell" wasn't affected. You do know that there is a difference, right? Does that make the above statement 100% catagorically goofy? Or were you referring to my saying that it would take a long time for rubbing block wear to make an appreciable difference in timing? In which case the above statement would merely be lacking in accuracy and understanding. Man, this is like watching a liberal foist words into other people's mouths. I didn't say that I didn't have any point bounce, what I said was that I had no problems. And I believe that this may illustrate what everyone’s problem seems to be with this line of thought; you see, my point is NOT that points are a more precise or better way to trigger the MSD box. My point is that points are a reliable and still viable way in which to do this because most of us would never feel the difference anyway. Of course I know that your sensitive booty would pick up on those points in your distributor right away as you put on that second coat of wax!

By the by old boy; the next time you feel like showing of that big brain you may want to use spell check.

Steve

O.K.,Steve-here's ignition 101 for you:

If points bounce/flucuate-dwell changes.

If the "block"postion changes-your dwell changes

If dwell changes-your timing changes

For performance minded people this is not a good thing

This is not a debate-able point-it is proven fact.


If you want the most from your engine,points are not reliable & proven.They are antiquated garbage that belongs in a museum sans 100 point show cars& the like .(Redundant-i know).

Who is this "everyone"?
And please shove your"sensitive booty" comment up your a$$.