427 Ring Gear, OUT!

[Excaliber]

WHOA!!! HEAD RUSH!!! THAT is a good point. I should set my base timing with existing springs and then change those springs to heavy ones to see if my timing has changed. Maybe the lighter springs are all ready allowing some advance at my 1000 rpm idle speed? I better check, just to eliminate a possible variable I might have over looked. What I thought was 20-22 base may actually be less than that.

See, THIS is what CC does best, a place to bounce ideas off each other.

[ERA Chas]

Dual pattern cams work. They work best with good breathing heads. Open the exhaust a little higher, a little longer with moderate overlap (108-110 LSA's).

[Bobcat]

Elmariachi ... to answer your earlier question ... I`m running two heavy silver springs at Don`s suggestion . He said the lighter ones sometimes cause the timing to not come back fully to the base setting .... and also sometimes bring the advance in at idle ( not good ) .
Sorry for the delayed response ... I was out of town yesterday .
I believe someone mentioned dual pattern cams ( Excaliber ? ) . I used to run nothing but dual patterns on my race engines and still do on my 427 Galaxie . Reason was that Ford exhaust ports flowed much less than the intake and couldn`t really be opened up enough . Since most of us are now running E brock heads , that may not be a problem now . The only way to tell is to put the head AND the intake on a flow bench . I used to do that and then worked with my cam grinder ( Schneider ) who would come up with a grind for my particular application . I would give anyone exact cam specs if they asked , but it did them no good as it was optimized for my engine only .

Bob

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Bobcat

Since most of us are now running E brock heads , that may not be a problem now.

... or it still might. Here's the flow data: http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_.../flow_data.pdf

[Bobcat]

Partrick ... guess I should have been more specific .... my fault. I think that most of the guys running the E brock heads have had them modified by some sort of CNC program , i.e Keith Craft and others . This gets the exhaust up in the range it needs to be . The problem I had on the iron heads was that there wasn`t enough meat in the ports ( without major welding ) to get it where it needed to be , therefore the dual pattern cams .
You are 100 % correct on the stock heads from E brock . Maybe Keith or someone else can speak more intelligently on the modified flow figures than I can .
I also remember my cylinder head guy telling me there was a ratio between intake and exhaust flow that should be maintained .... the difference being that exhaust gases were being pushed out ( and pulled by the collector ) and to go beyond that ratio would hurt overall performance . No data to back that up , just what I was told ... but my heads always outperformed everyone else`s on the track ... flowing everything as a unit is the only way to go . My guy always went for velocity and equal flow first and then total flow second .

[patrickt]

I'll go way out on a limb and say that most of us that have had our heads worked on probably land in the vicinity of the KC Stage 2 numbers. Now that's a really broad statement, so please no flames. Here's what Keith wrote about his Stage 2 numbers a few years ago:



Stage 2 Flow numbers

October 28 2003, 9:29 PM
We flow our heads at 28 inches of water which is pretty much the industry standard. The stage2 Edelbrock heads with a 2.19/1.75 valves flow as follows. Intake .400/280, .500/300, .600/318, .650/322 and the exhaust .400/198, .500/220, .600/235, .650/240. These numbers vary a few cfms each way. These are the numbers on what we call our stret strip stage 2 heads. We can change the valve angles and back-cuts on the valves and get as much as 335 on the intake at .700 and 250 at .700 on the exhaust. If someone needs real big flow number shtere is always our CNC heads that flow real big numbers. Thanks Keith

[Excaliber]

It's a thread drift, but ya got a point. Flow, cam profile all effect timing, which is the fundamental issue.

Perhaps on my NEXT engine I will be asking myself more about cylinder filling as it relates to compression ratio, cam profile, port velocity vs flow numbers, idle speed rpm and how all that relates to initial timing, carb selections and finally,,, the STARTER! Not to mention counting the teeth on the dang flywheel.

And I'm going to be SO depressed if I discover a hydraulic roller is just the ticket.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Perhaps on my NEXT engine I will be asking myself more about cylinder filling as it relates to compression ratio,cam profile, port velocity vs flow numbers, idle speed rpm and how all that relates to initial timing, carb selections and finally,,, the STARTER! Not to mention counting the teeth on the dang flywheel.

For now, just bolt the right flywheel back on there and don't forget to use a little LocTite so it doesn't fall off.

[Excaliber]

Got confirmation the flywheel ring gear has shipped, as well as the new synchro's for the top loader (preventative maintenance, it shifts fine) and the speedo driven gear to get the speedometer more accurate. I don't know, Locktite on the flywheel bolts ya think? Didn't use it last time, maybe got lucky. Didn't use it on the clutch cover plate either, maybe got lucky. BOTH were tight as heck on the tear down. I'll re-use the clutch plate which shows minimal wear, all surfaces (cover/flywheel) look good. Throw out bearing only has about a 1000 miles on it, I just recently replaced it.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Locktite on the flywheel bolts ya think? Didn't use it last time, maybe got lucky. Didn't use it on the clutch cover plate either, maybe got lucky.

We've had a few threads on this recently. The considered opinion is to use it, without a doubt. There is some debate as between red and blue.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by patrickt

We've had a few threads on this recently. The considered opinion is to use it, without a doubt. There is some debate as between red and blue.

Ernie, we decided in another thread that the proper method is to mix red and blue 50/50 and that would yield purple, suited specifically for flywheels.

[Excaliber]

Blue for me! Even without it those bolts were a real bear to break loose. Man, with red it might be nigh onto impossible trying to do it IN the car. The extension pipe I used on the breaker bar gave me clearance issues.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Blue for me! Even without it those bolts were a real bear to break loose. Man, with red it might be nigh onto impossible trying to do it IN the car. The extension pipe I used on the breaker bar gave me clearance issues.

Yikes Ernie,

Mine were Locktited in at 85 LbFt and my Ingersol spun them right out. Don't have clue why your gun wouldn't break 'em. Put back new ARP's same way using f'wheel tool and holder and it's t!ts.

[ERA Chas]

I have spoken to Barry in the past about this and for serious power he prefers to slightly modify Art Francis' Blue Thunder castings.

They're how it got him over 700 on pump gas.

My out of box CNC'd Shelbys are 320/230 @ .600 (which is where my cam works) and they clearly out perform my ported iron Med. Risers which had 2.250's and 1.75's.

Ring gears? We ALL got stinkin' ring gears!

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

I have spoken to Barry in the past about this and for serious power he prefers to slightly modify Art Francis' Blue Thunder castings.

They're how it got him over 700 on pump gas.

My out of box CNC'd Shelbys are 320/230 @ .600 (which is where my cam works) and they clearly out perform my ported iron Med. Risers which had 2.250's and 1.75's.

Ring gears? We ALL got stinkin' ring gears!

Isn't the only issue with the BT heads, the raised exhaust ports and thus a revision to the headers and exhaust?

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by RodKnock

Isn't the only issue with the BT heads, the raised exhaust ports and thus a revision to the headers and exhaust?

Yes that's true but if I had Barry's motor I'd gladly change my head pipes and collector to work with them.

The Shelbys have an exhaust port floor raised .250" so that does not change pipe requirements. The raised floor really helps out the exhaust side.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by ERA Chas

Yes that's true but if I had Barry's motor I'd gladly change my head pipes and collector to work with them.

The Shelbys have an exhaust port floor raised .250" so that does not change pipe requirements. The raised floor really helps out the exhaust side.

What little I do know, I'm aware of the fact that raised exhaust ports do create more power, but I would have chosen the BT's over the E's, but for the fact that I didn't want to change my headers and exhaust.

With Chevy's you can have your cake and eat it too.

[Excaliber]

Likely not enough pressure, I need to run it up to 150 or higher I reckon...

[Excaliber]

Red and Blue! What a concept.

As I tried to explain before, light vs heavy has it's place. For MY setup I do believe heavier wheel (40 pound Hays) is the right setup. I have a VERY tall first gear. Most of the time I start out, from a stop sign, with an rpm barely above my idle rpm. I rarely "slip" the clutch when doing so. I simply let it out and "putt" off into the sunset. My concern is that light wheel, under those conditions, would require more throttle and may result in some bucking of the engine.

Now, when I'm ready to "nail it" and burn some rubber or make a serious fast run at some ET, well THEN I wish I had both lower gears and a lighter flywheel. But I like my setup as it is for a daily driver, cruising around town, getting stuck in traffic, low speed with high gears. Plus a cam that is not all that happy with my rpm below 2000 all ready. All things considered, I think the heavy wheel is the ticket for the bulk of my driving style.

By the way, a close ratio with a 3:31 rear gear is not a recommended setup. Typically you would use a lower rear gear ratio with the CR Top Loader. Yeah, at times, it's a bit of a drag. BUT, I like it. I love the way those close ratio gears fall into place on the freeway for instance. I've dropped into 2nd gear at 65 mph on several occasions and it just feels great the way it pulls from there on up to over a 100. Fabulous!

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

My concern is that light wheel, under those conditions, would require more throttle and may result in some bucking of the engine.

I edited that part of my post when I saw that you had ordered just the ring. I think you are right about the heavy flywheel helping get out of the hole at low rpms. I had a Vette that would pull stumps out of first gear with no gas at all until I put the aluminum FW in it and then it wanted, as you say, to buck a bit.