427 Ring Gear, OUT!

[Excaliber]

Blew my starter drive the other day whilst out shopping. Got a push from a couple of Cobra admirer's and "bump started" it in 2nd gear. Pulled the starter this AM, starter gear all chewed up! Checked flywheel ring gear teeth, same condition. Looks like the tranny is coming out.

So what happened? Well recently I re-installed my distributor, had it out to play with, clean up. "Bumping" the engine over to firmly establish TDC by using a real flaky remote starter switch. That switch cause the starter to "stammer", jump in, jump out, pounding the heck out of the flywheel teeth. Shortly after that the old and tired starter drive went bad. Bought a new starter, it lasted about 3 days before it too bit the dust.

Moral of the story:
When bumping your engine with the starter solenoid, make sure you use a good remote starter switch and don't hammer the starter to hard. Or, be like me and end up pulling the flywheel out, your call.

Near as I can figure the ring gear is 184 teeth, at least that's what I ordered, hope it fits. Gotta go, need to pull the trans, l8tr.
Ernie

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Blew my starter drive the other day whilst out shopping.
Ernie

"Whilst?" WTF kind of language is that?

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Moral of the story:
When bumping your engine with the starter solenoid, make sure you use a good remote starter switch and don't hammer the starter to hard. Or, be like me and end up pulling the flywheel out, your call.

Near as I can figure the ring gear is 184 teeth, at least that's what I ordered, hope it fits. Gotta go, need to pull the trans, l8tr.
Ernie

Or use a 5/8ths 12 point on the balancer bolt with breaker bar to rotate the crank. I just don't like hitting the f'wheel with the starter repeatedly.

Ernie, yes 184 is right. Did you just order a ring gear and how will you remove and replace on f'wheel? Is yours a set-screw type?

[Excaliber]

Heat shrink fit for the ring gear. So LAST TIME I tried to install the ring myself. I put the flywheel in freezer, the lime in the coconut and "whilst" waiting for all things to "kick in" I fired up the torch. Heated the ring gear, dropped it on the very cold flywheel and promptly spilled my drink. Freakin' nightmare, could not get the ring to to fit.

Took it to a machine shop, I don't know HOW they did it, but thats my game plan this time. Put the lime in the coconut,,, STOP, done.

[Argess]

I use "whilst" from time to time. Although according to the link below, I may be using it incorrectly:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/whilst

I'd let out the clutch in 3rd or 4th when bump starting. As soon as it starts to fire, push in the clutch to let it up to idle speed.

I wonder if your igntion timing was advanced enough it put extra stress on the starter. Mine was too advanced for a while, and I think that's why the nose-end bushing shifted out of position causing the armature to drag.

I use a long wrench to move crank to timing marks. If I was to use a remote switch, I'd put it in the low current terminal on the solenoid....same one the ignition switch provides power to. I'm not comfortable with a portable switch handling over 300 amps. Not sure where you put the switch, but just in case.....

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Argess

I use "whilst" from time to time....

Dang, where is RodKnock when you need him?

[Argess]

LOLOLOLOL.........I just gotta be me...."whilst" visting Club-Cobra!!!

[Excaliber]

I'm trying to bring a little British culture to the Club.

Hey ya'll, how'm I duing?

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Heat shrink fit for the ring gear. So LAST TIME I tried to install the ring myself. I put the flywheel in freezer, the lime in the coconut and "whilst" waiting for all things to "kick in" I fired up the torch. Heated the ring gear, dropped it on the very cold flywheel and promptly spilled my drink. Freakin' nightmare, could not get the ring to to fit.

Took it to a machine shop, I don't know HOW they did it, but thats my game plan this time. Put the lime in the coconut,,, STOP, done.

I was afraid that was the procedure although I've seen some screw attachments. Hey if you've got dough to spend, get a whole new 18 pound f'wheel. Big difference for throttle response.

But if you keep the gear, take parts to machine shop, come back and do all your drinking-when you wake up your parts will be done.

[Excaliber]

Fire and ice, if you will, has been the accepted method for ring gear installation for decades. I've done it successfully on a number of flywheels over the years. I theorize the sheer size of a 427 flywheel is the problem, it's BIG at 15 plus inches.

I did consider buying a new light weight wheel, but I'm happy with the one I got. Performance is outstanding, a ring gear is only like $30, about the same to have on installed. My current one is balanced not only to my motor but to my pressure plate/clutch as well. The clutch has about 7000 miles on it, I might consider replacing the disc while (whilst? ) I have it down, but probably won't. It's working well and it aint that big a deal to pull the trans anyway.

[Eljaro]

Are you sure you had your starter correctly adjusted to fit your flywheel?
I almost ruined mine. Fortunately I noticed it on time and now the starting process is real quiet. I posted this experience in Tilton Starter Blues:

Since I had my new Pond sideoiler block my starter has been doing strange noises. Some days ago the starter would turn but not move the flyingwheel and it took me some pushing to get the pinion engaged to the flywheel and start the car.
I removed the starter and the pinion was badly chewed up. Some teeth on the flywheel did not look very healthy but all have enough depth left.
With the new block and the correct aligning of the gearbox shaft apparently the starter location has moved away from the engine shaft. I fixed it with a new pinion and bringing the starter closer to the flywheel. It works perfectly and very quiet now.

Since I had the old flywheel I reproduced on the bench the starter/flywheel setup and calculated that a 0.015 end play pinion/flywheel is 0.050 radial play on the large sliding gear which engages with the starter motor pinion.
I removed the starter flange and the drive unit from the starter, mounted them on the engine with the pinion in the extended position and checked how much a 0.015 play between the pinion and the ring gear would be of radial play on the large sliding gear of the starter. It resulted in a 0.050 radial play.

In order to achieve the correct end play I had to mount the starter flange on the lathe eccentrically ( a 3 mm thick aluminum plate under one of the chuck arms) in order to remove more aluminum off the collar on the side facing the block .
Additional to that I had to elongate the three mount holes enough to get the starter moved towards the block and eventually I got the desired 0.05 radial play. I also adjusted the distance in retracted mode between flywheel/starter by turning down the flange on the face where it meets the bellhousing cover.That one was too large also.
Now the gears engage fully and I can hardly hear any noise when starting.

[Excaliber]

That starter had been working fine for about two years, until I jerked it's chain playing with the funky remote start switch I had. No doubt I damaged the flywheel at that time, which led to the failure of the old starter and took out the new starter as well.

Judging from the pattern on the ring gear teeth it looks like it's getting enough bite, not to deep, not to shallow so I don't think alignment is a concern in this case.

Argess brings up a good point about TIMING though, I should have mentioned that earlier. YES, I'm running right on the EDGE of the starter having a hard time cranking the engine under "hot heat soaked" conditions. In fact, that's generally HOW I set the base timing! I advance with a light to 20 degrees, THEN I go for a drive and get the motor good and hot. Wait for the heat soak, try the starter, if it grunts and groans to much I back off the timing "just enough" to where it will crank, but not crank as fast as it could. So I know I'm putting a heavy load on the starter under hot conditions, but it holds up (as long as you don't jerk it's chain).

Eljaro, good post on how to modify the starter for a perfect match!

[ERA Chas]

Ernie, what about an MSD 2 step timing retard? I'm amazed with how many guys run elevated initial.

[Excaliber]

Your right Chas, you had mentioned that in another thread and I considered and think it IS something I need to do. I don't like retarding my timing "just enough" to let the starter work, I'd rather be able to "dial it in" to where I want it exactly!

Looks like the timing retard is the answer for me, thanks for the tip. As for shipping the car soon, I'm going to pull the 6500 rpm chip on the 6AL and replace it with a 3000 rpm chip. Another good tip if your worried about "dock jockies" driving your car on or off the boat!

Now another problem with the distributor, which I was trying to over come, is the 18 degrees mechanical advance. If I end up running 20-22-24 base THAN add another 18, not good. I'm TO far advanced. MSD offers no reasonable method to limit the 18 degrees (using the biggest bushing, the black one). That big bushing is about all that will fit to limit the advance curve. Dang it, I may have to consider another model distributor to really dial this thing in 100%. BUT, I like my "Ready to Run" dist, hate to give it up. I like the vacuum advance, I like the stand alone feature in case the MSD-6AL box bites the dust. I want it ALL.

I guess I could go to a second MSD box and wire it up to "switch" in case of failure, but I'm also trying to keep this whole thing SIMPLE. That aint gonna happen...

I tell you this, throttle response is fantastic with at least 20 degrees of advance base timing. Not only that, it remarkably cut's down on the "fuel slosh" stalling/hesitation during hard cornering or braking. Anything less than 20 and I have to deal with some other issue.

4 years and about 12,000 miles later I'm STILL looking for that illusive "perfection" pot of gold.

[olddog]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

My current one is balanced not only to my motor but to my pressure plate/clutch as well.

Theoretically unless the current ring gear and the next one are either a) perfectly ballanced, or b) off set ballanced exactly the same amount in the same spot, then the changing of the ring gear will change the ballance of the assembly.

It is likely not enough to cause an issue, but if you spent all that money to get every piece ballanced together, you might want to see how close the new ring gear is to zero ballance. Obviously the chewed up one isn't what it used to be.

[patrickt]

Ernie, I've never replaced the gear around the flywheel, but don't you have to remove the flywheel to do it? If your engine was zero balanced, without the flywheel on it, then you'll want to have your repaired flywheel & clutch assembly balanced as well as a unit. You are replacing your clutch, since you have it out, right?

[Eljaro]

To turn the engine over for maintenance or to bring it to TDC I use a breaker bar or long ratched with a socket and turn on the nut which fixes the balancer to the crankshaft. Very precise and easy to do.
Why use the starter to do that?

[Excaliber]

I don't think I'll worry about a re-balance on the flywheel, which will indeed have to come all the way off to replace the ring. I will be careful to mark the pressure plate for reassembly of course.

Clutch has about 7,000 miles on it, works well, I'll consider my options there when I have it out for inspection. I think I'll go ahead and replace the synchro's in the trans while I have that out though.

Pulling the trans is not a big deal for me, ERA makes it reasonably easy to do. Some other brands (older FFR come to mind) are a major PITA. If it was an FFR, I'd do the whole nine yards AND the crank pilot bearing!

I guess one should use a socket to turn over the engine, but there I was looking at my old and tired remote starter switch and thinking, "Does that still work?" That answer was, NO, it doesn't!

[patrickt]

OK, I'd at least throw a fresh driven disc in there. Please take photos while you're doing it all; you know everyone enjoys that.

[ERA Chas]

Originally Posted by patrickt

OK, I'd at least throw a fresh driven disc in there. Please take photos while you're doing it all; you know everyone enjoys that.

Except the guy doing the work...