427 Ring Gear, OUT!

[Excaliber]

...never did care for fruit cake...

[Bobcat]

Ernie ... correct on the flywheel . I had a friend who was a serious squirt racer . They had a computer program that would figure the optimum flywheel weight when a whole bunch of parameters were fed in . But to summarize ... and be VERY general ... heavy car , heavy flywheel , light car , light(er) flywheel . You ought to see the flywheel on my Galaxie ( 4100 lbs ) .
A heavy FW helps you come off the line as the engine doesn`t bog down . In circle track racing , some of the big teams ran a Ram clutch setup ... it had little or no flywheel ... talk about instant acceleration and deceleration .
I machined all the counterweights off one of my cranks once and machined my flywheel to look like Swiss cheese ... boy did it rev quickly ... boy did it destroy main bearings !

Bob

[ERA Chas]

Ernie!

You only weigh 2600-not 4100!

Here's a good money saving compromise. When the RG comes, take wheel and gear to machinist and tell him to shave eight pounds out of the wheel. That can be done safely but not much more. Remember mine is 33 lbs. You can get down there and I'm sure you won't judder on off idle starts. And if you do, throttle it a little!

Might cost you $150 plus the gear installation.

You WILL really enjoy the throttle response improvement. I took 3
lbs off the front of the crank by changing dampers and noticed an improvement.

[Excaliber]

Oh I'm pretty sure that 4100 pound Galaxie was running more than a 40 pound flywheel.

I hear what your saying Chas. Here's a rule of thumb I like. Every pound of ROTATING weight is worth three pounds of static weight.

I'm all ready considering some major changes with my car, down the road. 5 speed for one thing, possible top end with different heads, single four intake, light weight flywheel, different cam, more of a road racing setup. AFTER I get moved and settled in, right now I'm in the middle of packing. This was the worst possible time for me to be playing with the car, I really shot myself in the foot this time.

I recently bought a second set of wheels (four) so I can mount some race tires and make it easy to quickly change from street to track. Can't wait to get on a track again (none on Oahu).

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Oh I'm pretty sure that 4100 pound Galaxie was running more than a 40 pound flywheel.

Nope, it really was 40 lbs. Ernie, shoot a PM over to Rick Lake and ask him to recount his story of originally starting out with a 40 lb. flywheel, how the stored energy would bust the tires loose all the time, and then when he changed to an aluminum flywheel his acceleration times increased and he had less wheelspin. Personally, I love my aluminum flywheel.

[Excaliber]

By the way, what IS "fast"? With my current setup I can go 0-100 in 7.98 seconds, measured at the old race track. And thats with a 2 second hole shot to keep the wheel spin down! Come on man, it's "fast enough"!

Oh, single four with a center pivot float for better road race cornering, but I'm gonna miss the look of the dual fours.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

By the way, what IS "fast"? With my current setup I can go 0-100 in 7.98 seconds, measured at the old race track. And thats with a 2 second hole shot to keep the wheel spin down! Come on man, it's "fast enough"!

That's pretty fast. But an aluminum flywheel also lets you slow down faster as well.

[brobehr]

I for one greatly appreciate these mild deviations from original post. Hopefully it cuts my goofs by half

thanks all

[Argess]

When I installed my flywheel, I used Ford flywheel bolts. They are "place bolts" and apparenlty the strongest bolt available according to page 92 of Carroll Smith's "Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners and Plumbing Handbook". I'm not sure if it's still accurate, but he lists the P/N as B8AZ-6379A.

It's been a while, but I think mine came with some blue-thread-locker painted on the threads.

On Loc-tite, the red is for large bolts, blue is for small fasteners...such as 6-32 machine screws...i.e. very small, so if you want to use Loc-tite, use the Red. And by the way, I suspect the torque needed to overcome red loc-tite is insignificant compared to the 100 ft-lbs or so (sorry, can't remember the exact spec) needed to loosen flywheel bolts.

I do believe a properly torqued bolt doesn't need loc-tite. For example, I've never heard of anyone using it on connecting rod bolts.

But for piece of mind, I do use it....on the camshaft sprocket bolt and if my bolts didn't already have some sort of thread locker, the flywheel bolts. I did use it on the pressure plate bolts as well. Just an extra precaution, but probably overkill.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Argess

On Loc-tite, the red is for large bolts, blue is for small fasteners...such as 6-32 machine screws...i.e. very small, so if you want to use Loc-tite, use the Red.

Just for clarification for the newbies that might read this. In the beginning there was just blue and red. Blue was for aluminum/soft alloy and items that needed light fastening and red for steel/heavy locking. Now there are dozens of flavors and the lines between the colors are more blurred. Read the packaging and ask yourself, "Will I ever be faced with having to break this apart in the field with minimal tools?" Or "Will I have shop tools and heat available to break this apart?" That dictates which Loctite to use.

[Argess]

True enough....I was too lazy to look up the loc-tite P/Ns and there are a lot more now, some very similiar looking. Good point.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Argess

True enough....I was too lazy to look up the loc-tite P/Ns and there are a lot more now, some very similiar looking. Good point.

When I started on my Cobra I had the same old two red and blue containers I have had for 10 years. When I went to buy new stuff, I couldn't believe how many variations of Loctite there were. Of course, its niche marketing at its finest. Hell they even have food grade now.

[Excaliber]

Wait, there's more than the 10 year old Red and Blue in my tool box?

Old school rules...

[elmariachi]

Holy crap according to the website there are some 60 thread sealing and locking variants. I figured maybe a dozen.

[Excaliber]

I know this about the OLD Red. That stuff MAY have to be heated with a torch to break loose the nut/bolt in question. It seriously "locks" stuff in place!

[patrickt]

<sigh> ... as I said, "There is some debate as between red and blue."

EDIT -- or green, yellow, indigo, mauve, taupe.......

[Excaliber]

The parts came in today. Most important one was the new 184 tooth ring gear. I waited at the machine shop while they heated and pressed it onto the old flywheel (you remember, the extremely heavy old school 40 pound boat anchor flywheel).

Anyway, it occured to me that the GEAR RATIO has now changed. 152 teeth is a TALLER gear than 184 teeth. The engine won't turn over as FAST as it used to with the 152 tooth gear. It will turn slower now with the 184 tooth and thus crank over with more torque! Perhaps running 20-22 base timing won't be near as much of a problem as it was with the "high speed" 152 ring gear! Surprisingly, gear teeth mesh/match is about equal for both flywheels. I was getting a good "bite", before and now, but the starter was just struggling to spin the motor with the advanced timing and the 152 tooth.

Or, is my math hopelessly screwed up here?

[Argess]

I think you are "over-worried". Don't forget, an unloaded starter will rev to the moon. Your starter should rev to the point it is putting out max power to the load that it is capable of. So, the good news is your engine should crank at least as fast as it did before.

Now more good news, since that starter rpm will be greater with the higher tooth ring gear, the starter will be in a more effecient operating range, and the engine should actually crank faster.

But I"m not sure.....LOL. Oh well, you'll find out eventually.

EDIT: Electric motors start with max torque at zero rpms, and the torque drops linearly to zero at max rpms. During this time, HP of the motor builds to max at 1/2 of max unloaded speed. You can be sure that during cranking, the motor is not likely to achieve 1/2 max starter speed. So, the faster your starter can spin, the more power it actually puts out, and the faster your cranking speed will be.

[Excaliber]

Well that was an interesting take on the rpm/torque thing Argess. Sounds like a reasonable theory to me!

[Argess]

It's just about effecient power transfer. Sort of like those 6-speed Corvettes that supposedly have a higher top speed in 5th gear.

Gee.....just to type this stuff, I have to put on my Buddy Holly glasses with the band-aid in the middle, insert pocket protector, button up top button of my shirt (with no tie) and fasten a calculator to my belt......LOL.

Anyway, hope it works for you. You've been going through a lot with this whole starter/flywheel thing.