Give up a 991 GT3 for a Superformance GT40?

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by 4pipes

I believe #3170's post was implying the GT3 was miles ahead in performance and safety technology than the GT40.

Absolutely! But the GT40 is not about current performance or comfort levels, rather it is about driving something from a time when the ABS system was connected via the drivers right foot and his brain. The traction control worked the same way. There was no electronic suspension adjustments and in fact no way to adjust the brake bias without crawling into the footwell.

The payoff is you are driving a legend. A car that the best drivers of the mid-sixties raced and won with. It is a car that rewards the driver with performance based upon the level of driver input. It is a car that is surprisingly comfortable (for a race car) with a rather compliant ride and handling that when properly set up is pretty vice free.

It will leak water in the rain. It will clunk and thunk. It will start in an understeering mode and move to tail out with proper application of power. And it will make you grin so hard that hours later people will wonder what you have been up to!

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

Absolutely! But the GT40 is not about current performance or comfort levels, rather it is about driving something from a time when the ABS system was connected via the drivers right foot and his brain. The traction control worked the same way. There was no electronic suspension adjustments and in fact no way to adjust the brake bias without crawling into the footwell.

The payoff is you are driving a legend. A car that the best drivers of the mid-sixties raced and won with. It is a car that rewards the driver with performance based upon the level of driver input. It is a car that is surprisingly comfortable (for a race car) with a rather compliant ride and handling that when properly set up is pretty vice free.

It will leak water in the rain. It will clunk and thunk. It will start in an understeering mode and move to tail out with proper application of power. And it will make you grin so hard that hours later people will wonder what you have been up to!

You completely forgot to mention they don't go out of style and they don't really depreciate if you buy a used one. For me nothing could be worse than buying a new car for $150k and the taking immaculate care of it while losing 80k over the next 5 years.

[Igofastr]

For what its worth...

I have a number of Porsches...and have had them for 25+ years, but no GT3 at this point. I have a SPF GT40, and have/have had a Kirkham Cobra.

Here's my impression. The Porsche will easily be the most comfortable car to drive (around town or on trips). It's the safest and has the best build quality, by far.

The cobra is a "fun" car...mostly on shorter trips, and maybe on the track. Its easy to see out of, and easy to drive and park around town.

The GT40 is a little more refined than the cobra, but much more difficult to drive around town (getting in, getting out, parking, changing lanes etc). Once you're in, it's a pretty good road-trip car, if you can keep the noise down a bit. Certainly better than the Cobra. Unfortunately, you can't get anywhere near it's performance limits on the street. In that respect, the Porsche, and all of it's nanny devices will save your bacon, while the GT40 will happily let you spin off into the weeds. That said, it would be a blast on the track (again a little safer than the Cobra, but nowhere near as safe as the GT3)

Reliability...GT3 wins. The Cobra and GT40 are probably a wash, depending on who built your engine.

Operating cost..., well, nothing about Porsches are cheap, especially shop labor and parts. The GT has more parts than the cobra, so potentially could be more expensive to repair. However, the engines are American iron, and can be fixed by mechanics familiar with good old V8s...at half the cost of their Teutonic cousin.

Pick your poison. I like them all. The cobra, I would think, is the easiest to have "fun" with. But they all have their strong points.

They all will attract attention on the street, but the GT40 wins the beauty pageant.

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by MHNCO

What is "1960s" technology? I have owned a Ford GT and a GT40. One is a street car and the other is a race car. Don't think one had any more technology than the other.

The GT40 has suspension geometry designed for bias ply tires, it has rear lift at high speeds and much lower torsional stiffness than the 2005-2006 Ford GT just to begin with. I can't provide the make of the particular replicas but my 2005 GT had no problem lapping several GT40 replicas at Willow springs. I would say our skill levels were probably equal so the new car is most likely superior in terms of aerodynamics, suspension geometry, engine, chassis stiffness, and tire construction/design. This does not include all the other potential technology upgrades possible today such as 4 wheel steering, instant shock valve adjustment, stability management using shocks and selective corner braking and static and active aerodynamics. If you want nostalgia and to drive a car of the 1960's you will get no argument from me. The GT40 is most likely the best of the era, It is light, fast and has decent aerodynamics. It will not be nearly as fast as the current crop of super cars though nor as safe and comfortable.

[MHNCO]

Please share the suspension setup on an original spec chassis and explain how it differs from the FGT and is designed for bias ply tires. The numbers I've seen for torsional rigidity showed a ~30% increase for the FGT but given it weighs 1500lbs more, it's probably is a wash given the forces in play.

Your experience on the track is anecdotal at best. There are a couple guys on the GT40 site who have their cars setup for track that state they are running with GT3's all day long. I would guess brakes would be the limiting factor given the size difference.

Can you describe the GT40s you lap at Willow because I would love to hear their side of that story. Given the limited number that run there it should not be too hard to figure out who they are on the GT40 site.

If you want a soft seats, A/C, cup holders, satnav, and a nice stereo for your lady gaga tracks, then a modern sports car is the ticket. If you want a no compromises, visceral race car experience that will leave you exhausted, sweating hot, deaf, and your eyeballs rattled, then there are few options better than a GT40. I would not trade mine for my old Ford GT in this lifetime and I liked my FGT a lot.

http://p2161.com/images/lowered-after.jpg

[MHNCO]

Is this one that you lap?

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvQ0ZXdNHJw[/ame]

[peterpjb]

any 911 gt3 is a blue chip investment, a gt40 spf is not,

i have driven some gt3 and they are all the summary of what 911s are...

[fastd]

does that mean the 911 gt3 will appreciate in value?

[peterpjb]

Originally Posted by fastd

does that mean the 911 gt3 will appreciate in value?

definitely, as every special 911

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by MHNCO

Please share the suspension setup on an original spec chassis and explain how it differs from the FGT and is designed for bias ply tires. The numbers I've seen for torsional rigidity showed a ~30% increase for the FGT but given it weighs 1500lbs more, it's probably is a wash given the forces in play.

Your experience on the track is anecdotal at best. There are a couple guys on the GT40 site who have their cars setup for track that state they are running with GT3's all day long. I would guess brakes would be the limiting factor given the size difference.

Can you describe the GT40s you lap at Willow because I would love to hear their side of that story. Given the limited number that run there it should not be too hard to figure out who they are on the GT40 site.

If you want a soft seats, A/C, cup holders, satnav, and a nice stereo for your lady gaga tracks, then a modern sports car is the ticket. If you want a no compromises, visceral race car experience that will leave you exhausted, sweating hot, deaf, and your eyeballs rattled, then there are few options better than a GT40. I would not trade mine for my old Ford GT in this lifetime and I liked my FGT a lot.

http://p2161.com/images/lowered-after.jpg

I doubt that anything I say will sway your opinion so I won't try. First of all my Ford GT was modified with aero improvements, a 4.0 liter whipple, Penske's, increased spring rates, larger wheels etc etc. It made 862 hp at the rear tires so not nearly a fair fight. I was radar gunned at 174 mph on the fairly short front straight at Willow. I doubt any of your replica buddies would even reach 150 there. My point was regarding the 991 GT3 it is very different than earlier mdls and much faster, are your friends beating 991 GT3's?

You want to talk visceral? My Cobra weighs 2370 pounds and has 850 normally aspirated FW horsepower and 632 LB/Ft. The suspension has been changed to eliminate 1960's design problems like scrub radius, camber gain
toe steer, rack speed, antidive geometry etc. It has 18" wheels and 315x18" front tires with 335x18 rears the engine is chipped at 8200 rpm. This car will get out of shape with imprudent throttle application well above 100 mph. I believe it is far more challenging to drive than any replica GT40 so I know what visceral means. The original question was would you trade a 991 GT3 for a replica GT40. My answer was no because the GT3 will do everything
better with greater reliability. If you want to subject yourself to all the
BS that goes with a 1960's car great, that is a personal choice. If you are used to a current modern car (991) you might be disappointed with a replica of a 1960's car. The financial implications are also significant as mentioned by others.
I still own all three cars so drive and compare them quite regularly.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsQoE1T-aNs[/ame]

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

I doubt that anything I say will sway your opinion so I won't try. First of all my Ford GT was modified with aero improvements, a 4.0 liter whipple, Penske's, increased spring rates, larger wheels etc etc. It made 862 hp at the rear tires so not nearly a fair fight. I was radar gunned at 174 mph on the fairly short front straight at Willow. I doubt any of your replica buddies would even reach 150 there. My point was regarding the 991 GT3 it is very different than earlier mdls and much faster, are your friends beating 991 GT3's?

You want to talk visceral? My Cobra weighs 2370 pounds and has 850 normally aspirated FW horsepower and 632 LB/Ft. The suspension has been changed to eliminate 1960's design problems like scrub radius, camber gain
toe steer, rack speed, antidive geometry etc. It has 18" wheels and 315x18" front tires with 335x18 rears the engine is chipped at 8200 rpm. This car will get out of shape with imprudent throttle application well above 100 mph. I believe it is far more challenging to drive than any replica GT40 so I know what visceral means. The original question was would you trade a 991 GT3 for a replica GT40. My answer was no because the GT3 will do everything
better with greater reliability. If you want to subject yourself to all the
BS that goes with a 1960's car great, that is a personal choice. If you are used to a current modern car (991) you might be disappointed with a replica of a 1960's car. The financial implications are also significant as mentioned by others.
I still own all three cars so drive and compare them quite regularly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsQoE1T-aNs

You are correct that the GT3 will do everything as well or better than the GT40 will and with less input/drama/noise, etc. But that is exactly the point of the GT40, we WANT the "60s" feel and experience!

I would think that for pure track use there are even better choices than the Porsche but that really is not the question; it is not "what is the best track day car?" but rather "do I want the 1960's experience?"

[Cobra #3170]

Originally Posted by Mark IV

You are correct that the GT3 will do everything as well or better than the GT40 will and with less input/drama/noise, etc. But that is exactly the point of the GT40, we WANT the "60s" feel and experience!

I would think that for pure track use there are even better choices than the Porsche but that really is not the question; it is not "what is the best track day car?" but rather "do I want the 1960's experience?"

I was under the impression that it would be a combination car, if track day only there are dozens of better choices than a GT3. Radical SR8 would be a great choice for a very fast two seater 6min 58 seconds at Nuremberg ring. The general opinion seems to be that the 991 GT3 is a posh comfortable car, believe me it is not. It rides rougher than my Cobra on race tires, it scrapes on any driveway with a modest slope, it is barely legal for exhaust noise and the multidisk clutch clanks and clunks at idle like a race car. Again no argument from me if you want the 60's experience but if not, GT3 is the better choice.

[Bernica]

The original GT40's weren't without their issues to be sure. But today, technology has come a long ways! Love dem brakes!!!

Listen To Carroll Shelby's Concerns About The Burning Brakes Of The Ford GT40s At Le Mans

[Mark IV]

Originally Posted by Bernica

The original GT40's weren't without their issues to be sure. But today, technology has come a long ways! Love dem brakes!!!

Listen To Carroll Shelby's Concerns About The Burning Brakes Of The Ford GT40s At Le Mans

The same Carroll Shelby who says on video that the GT40s "weighed 4000 pounds!" It seems his memory got a dash of his snake oil in the later years.

[MHNCO]

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

I doubt that anything I say will sway your opinion so I won't try... my Ford GT was modified with aero improvements... made 862 hp at the rear tires... was radar gunned at 174 mph on the fairly short front straight at Willow...

Seems like trying to me lol. That's pretty awesome and I'm sure your near the leader of the pack at your local track day. I still want to understand your suspension settings. You do realize the GT40 suspension is completely adjustable yes? Doesn't seem like you know much about the GT40... par for the course for most FGT owners.

Originally Posted by Cobra #3170

The financial implications are also significant as mentioned by others.

Oh BS. My GT40 four years into ownership is worth more today by a wide margin than what I bought it for in 2012. I don't dislike modern 911s but to say they are bluechip investments is silly.

Asking others what sort of car you should desire seems no different than asking if you should prefer blondes or brunettes. If you don't already know then...

Some people like fart cans on the back if their V-Tec Yo!

Some like ridiculous Fast & Furious wings and bragadocious but unusable HP...

For me it's 450hp of slip sliding bias ply GT40. I was fortunate enough to attend and it was awesome

PS 3 of them were SPF cars

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpmtKrUkjZ8[/ame]

[MHNCO]

Why not just have both a blonde and a brunette with your Porsche and GT40. Problem solved... maybe lol.

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by MHNCO

Seems like trying to me lol. That's pretty awesome and I'm sure your near the leader of the pack at your local track day. I still want to understand your suspension settings. You do realize the GT40 suspension is completely adjustable yes? Doesn't seem like you know much about the GT40... par for the course for most FGT owners.

Oh BS. My GT40 four years into ownership is worth more today by a wide margin than what I bought it for in 2012. I don't dislike modern 911s but to say they are bluechip investments is silly.

Asking others what sort of car you should desire seems no different than asking if you should prefer blondes or brunettes. If you don't already know then...

Some people like fart cans on the back if their V-Tec Yo!

Some like ridiculous Fast & Furious wings and bragadocious but unusable HP...

For me it's 450hp of slip sliding bias ply GT40. I was fortunate enough to attend and it was awesome

PS 3 of them were SPF cars

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpmtKrUkjZ8

I'll leave this one to 3170

[MHNCO]

Is 3170 going to challenge 2161?

[Bernica]

Lots of bravado their Sir. Especially for a newbie. Might want to check that at the door.
We have a name for that here...

[MHNCO]

Those dang newbies