Near Disaster

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by TButtrick

OK. So then how do I explain what happened to my safety wire.

"Originally Posted by TButtrick
This is with right handed threads on the right side and tightens toward the front. As you can see from the picture, the safety wire indicates that the spinner has tightened more after driving. I have a loop in the safety wire that I monitor before each drive."


Based on what you said above, to loosen the nut would have rotated counter-clockwise which is exactly what it did. No more loop.
If it had tightened it would have rotated clockwise.

You are very lucky that there was safety wire on your wheels!

[TButtrick]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

"Originally Posted by TButtrick
This is with right handed threads on the right side and tightens toward the front. As you can see from the picture, the safety wire indicates that the spinner has tightened more after driving. I have a loop in the safety wire that I monitor before each drive."


Based on what you said above, to loosen the nut would have rotated counter-clockwise which is exactly what it did. No more loop.
If it had tightened it would have rotated clockwise.

You are very lucky that there was safety wire on your wheels!

OK.. I've had a few more shots of Teguillllla and I'm ready to contemplate. The pic I posted is of the passenger side wheel. The right of the pic is toward the front. The safety wire has slacked meaning the spinner tightened even more toward the front on right hand threads. My head hurts. Seriously, not trying to buck the system but I believe more of what I see.

[jmimac351]

I think I understand the explanation although, Todd, I have my Vintage hubs on the "correct" way so between the two of us we have this covered and should be fine.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by TButtrick

OK.. I've had a few more shots of Teguillllla and I'm ready to contemplate. The pic I posted is of the passenger side wheel. The right of the pic is toward the front. The safety wire has slacked meaning the spinner tightened even more toward the front on right hand threads. My head hurts. Seriously, not trying to buck the system but I believe more of what I see.

Ok, let's start with your comment "I have a loop in the safety wire that I monitor before each drive." I took that to mean you had a loop in the wire around midway and if the loop straightened out the knock-off had moved. The wire in the picture is shown more or less straight showing the knock-off has rotated counter-clockwise which would be "loosen" on right hand threads. What am I missing?

Now that I look at your safety wire a few more questions come to mind. The wire looks rusted. Are you not using stainless steel wire? How is the wire wrapped around the segment of the wheel? Did you drill a hole in the wheel as I don't see the wire going around a segment of the wheel.

http://www.whizwheels.com/Tips/safetywiring.html

[TButtrick]

Originally Posted by A-Snake

Ok, let's start with your comment "I have a loop in the safety wire that I monitor before each drive." I took that to mean you had a loop in the wire around midway and if the loop straightened out the knock-off had moved. The wire in the picture is shown more or less straight showing the knock-off has rotated counter-clockwise which would be "loosen" on right hand threads. What am I missing?

Now that I look at your safety wire a few more questions come to mind. The wire looks rusted. Are you not using stainless steel wire? How is the wire wrapped around the segment of the wheel? Did you drill a hole in the wheel as I don't see the wire going around a segment of the wheel.

http://www.whizwheels.com/Tips/safetywiring.html

Maybe its the perspective. Here's what it should look like (with stainless wire). Yes I drilled the wheel and wrapped it around the webbing. The loop is still there in my first pic. You're just looking at it from the side.

[FatBoy]

Originally Posted by TButtrick

OK.. I've had a few more shots of Teguillllla and I'm ready to contemplate. The pic I posted is of the passenger side wheel. The right of the pic is toward the front. The safety wire has slacked meaning the spinner tightened even more toward the front on right hand threads. My head hurts. Seriously, not trying to buck the system but I believe more of what I see.

There could be a number of reasons why you appear to have more slack in your wire, but rest assured, it isn't because your spinners have tightened.
You have your hubs and spinners on the wrong side of your car, please accept the combined wisdom and experience of countless authorities on the subject. I'm sure you won't find a single credible manufacturer that designs them to be the way you have them.

Paul

[Jac Mac]

This diagram explains it for the two types of nut, since the cobra originally came with wire wheels that I assume employed the Rudge ( Female- LHT/RHS ) nut, I could understand why everyone assumes that all centerlocks could be the same, however when you actually check the two principles out the above diagram is correct.

Now to add another curve ball, why do some have more problems than others with knock off's coming loose? I think it has more to do with wheel offset, camber and castor angles, and particularly scrub radius and how the cars weight bears on the center nut. For example-imagine a cobra with some positive camber ( wheel/tire out at top), in this situation the center nut will have more load imposed on it than if the car had 0° or negative camber.

Personally I dont have a horse in this race-yet, but one day before I do I intend to jig up a hub & male nut assy in the lathe so that I can spin it in both directions while changing the effective load inputs from side to side by means of a link to the tool post. Only thing I wont be able to do is simulate the effect that brake heat and different rates of expansion might have on these components . I KNOW that can cause a lot of grief from personal experience. Fat Boy, you should have been around that day- steel centerlock wheels on a male alloy hub with RHT/RHS--LHT/LHS, the self tightening process was definitely in action with that setup-- when the hub assy expanded during the race the center nut ( knockoff ) self tightened, when the hub cooled and shrunk it effectively increased the tightness of the center nut to the point where we had to destroy/cut the nut off by drilling/splitting it off the hub. These wheels were used as a set of wets & had given no problems prior when used as wets, but on this occasion the car had made a pitstop with a puncture during a dry race and as no spare was available the [not] so clever crew fitted the wet type tire/wheel.

BTW, look closely at T. Buttricks pics, both spinner( knock off ) & wheel center spoke are drilled for the safety wire.

[TButtrick]

Originally Posted by FatBoy

You have your hubs and spinners on the wrong side of your car, please accept the combined wisdom and experience of countless authorities on the subject. I'm sure you won't find a single credible manufacturer that designs them to be the way you have them.
Paul

Let's not get all huffy here. I've accepted the fact that they need to be changed. Just trying to better understand what I'm seeing. I guess I'm a bit surprised that, considering the importance of following conventional wisdom, that instructions weren't included.

Originally Posted by FatBoy

There could be a number of reasons why you appear to have more slack in your wire, but rest assured, it isn't because your spinners have tightened.
Paul

Name two.

[Randy Rosenberg]

1. A-Snake is 100% accurate.
2. I believe that there are two reasons why knock-offs are harder to remove after driving:

a. Heat expansion/contraction of the mating metals may cause them to stick to each other.
b. Similar metals under pressure will seize to each other, as well - if your wheels and knock-offs are both made of the same metal (Al), then over time (driving time?) they will get harder to separate (or knock-off). This is why I was informed to use a "dis-similar" metal based lubricant (ie: Copper) on the hub thread and surface where the knock-off touches the wheel.

Here is the lubricant that I use: http://www.wurthusa.com/project/en/l...th=04.0121.jpg <- I believe it is the CU 1100.

Do we have any "metalurists" to either confirm or deny my simple-ton's understand?

[Jamo]

Hmmm...maybe I didn't drink 'nugh of that tukeela, but A-Snake's little model ain't working right for me.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Hmmm...maybe I didn't drink 'nugh of that tukeela, but A-Snake's little model ain't working right for me.

If you're referring to the racer's tape and socket you can try something more
familiar like a roll of toilet paper with a cigar in the tube.

[Jamo]

Hehehe...sounds like something I can test out while sitting down.

Ok, I realize you're talking about comparative speeds of the two bodies, in relation to each other. On the driver's side, even though they're moving in the same direction, the slower speed of the outer body in relation to the inner body at some point makes it crawl around the inner body (tightening it, so to speak). On the passenger side, that same comparative crawl would have it untighten but/for the threads being reversed.

But aren't we talking about centrifugal force rather than comparative speed being the motivation for the reversed threads? At some point the two bodies are joined together (threaded on) unless some force is acting to pull them apart?

Isn't this the meaning of life?

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Jamo

At some point the two bodies are joined together (threaded on) unless some force is acting to pull them apart?

Uh, this is a G-rated thread.

[A-Snake]

Originally Posted by Jamo

But aren't we talking about centrifugal force rather than comparative speed being the motivation for the reversed threads? At some point the two bodies are joined together (threaded on) unless some force is acting to pull them apart?

Isn't this the meaning of life?

"When the hubs are rotating in the wrong direction, the nut will come totally unscrewed very quickly as soon as it becomes the slightest bit loose. With just 0.001 inch difference in diameter the relative motion of the nut to the wheel will be 0.003 inch with each rotation of the wheel. You can work out the math, but with this much rotation the nut will unscrew one complete turn in about 3 miles of road travel. As the clearance increases the relative rotation increases, and you are surely doomed."

[A-Snake]

[xlr8or]

Can't we just say "put the rights on the left and the lefts on the right" and be done. It's one of those things you just do because it's the correct way. All this talk of Dis-similar and rotational speeds just confuses people.

PS: The hub turns one full revolution in the same amount of time as the spinner or the tire for that matter.

[Jamo]

muy goodo socks

Scott's assplanation is the same one my Dad always gave me when I asked questions about why we did things a certain way for pruning or grafting grape vines: "Because it's the RIGHT way!"

Seemed good 'nugh at the time.

[cdnus]

TButtrick
More of a concern once you do get the hubs & wheels installed in the correct
( accepted ) position, is the lack of thread grip you appear to have on the spinners.
On my Vintage hubs & wheels I have all of the starter portion of the hub plus several threads exposed once the spinners are installed.
Unless yours are designed differently ( I would like to see a photo of the hub, less wheel & spinner ) I am under the impression you do not have enough threads holding the spinners in place.

Craig

[TButtrick]

Originally Posted by cdnus

TButtrick
More of a concern once you do get the hubs & wheels installed in the correct
( accepted ) position, is the lack of thread grip you appear to have on the spinners.
On my Vintage hubs & wheels I have all of the starter portion of the hub plus several threads exposed once the spinners are installed.
Unless yours are designed differently ( I would like to see a photo of the hub, less wheel & spinner ) I am under the impression you do not have enough threads holding the spinners in place.

Craig

This is how they arrived from Vintage Wheels. All the threads on the spinner and hub are engaged. Making the hub longer will not make a difference.

[cdnus]

Looking at your photos one can see clearly there is at least a portion of unthreaded area of the hub inside the spinner. On mine that is quite wide ( I will have to go out to the shop & measure to be exact ) if yours is the same you do not have enough thread holding the spinner on.
Craig

Went out & measured---3/4" protruding out of spinner.
1/2" unthreaded starter nipple--approx 2 threds=1/4" Total--3/4"

So if yours are manufactured the same, you do not have proper thread engagememt

Craig