Its over, the Dems win

[Ron61]

I tend to agree more with what that judge said than anything the politicians said except that they ignore the Constitution. As for a majority, that is what our voting system is based on and the majority can be 51% vrs 49%, the 51% should win. The Govt. hasn't represented the people for years, just themselves and their friends. Strange how all the people are supposed to follow those idiots like lambs and we have to obey the law but they exempt themselves from any law.

Ron

[PDUB]

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

Sorry it was unclear. I know it's shocking. My share of health insurance, therefore healthcare, costs as much as my share of taxes needed to run the entire rest of the country.

This is according to my monthly with-holding statements and known insurance costs.

This is pretty much meaningless, since it depends on both your particular ins. policy and your tax bracket... and, no doubt, both are too high! But, with a statement like this you imply that the cost of healthcare in the US is equivalent to the cost of running the whole government, which is inaccurate.

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

I live in a northern state as well and it is not uncommon for folks to cross the border to the nearest good medical center in a larger city...

Surprised to hear that the good folk of Bismark head to Canada for their healthcare! Seems like a long drive. In all of the experience that I have in dealing with patients... in all conversations with folks from Canada, or even the UK for that matter... I have never once heard of Americans going to use other systems out of choice. No doubt it happens out of necessity on rare occasions, and by choice even less, but not very often (we are not talking about extenuating geographic circumstances that would trump choice on either side). And never once did I hear from them that, "we prefer to get healthcare in Canada, but we are settling for the second rate services we get here in the states..." On the contrary, they complained about their home systems, and that is why they came here.

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

I imagine Wayne Maybury and others are worried Canada might lose their system if the US caves in to the huge healthcare juggernaut scam we have here.

Huh???

Originally Posted by Wes Tausend

I see you worked in health-care PDUB. I imagine you didn't get much of the money. People that work rarely do. You might reconsider which tree to bark up.

Wes

***

Gee, thanks for the tip Wes.

[SP01715]

I have not seen ant polls showing 50% supporting this bill, as a matter of fact a poll I saw last night showed 60% opposing it. Think what you want about the judge, but he is an expert on the constitution. For a daily Kos type liberal like yourself though, you will resort to ridicule. That's the MO for you guys.

[Excaliber]

Unbelievable, I guess we need to post the Judges comment one more time. Maybe we need a poll that answers the question: Could this man be an "expert"?

Congress doesn’t care about the Constitution, it doesn’t care about your inalienable rights, it doesn’t care about the liberties protected by the Bill of Rights, it doesn’t even read the laws it writes.

And you consider this whacko nut case an EXPERT???

Ya see my signature line below? That sum's up the problem we have here...

[Excaliber]

If you like Poll numbers, and I think they are largely irrelevant myself unless an election is VERY near, here's one you might find interesting:

From the nonpartisan Robert Wood Johnson Foundation:

82 percent say an overhaul of the nation’s health care system is important for recharging the economy, according to an average of monthly polls conducted since April by the nonpartisan Robert Wood Johnson Foundation

I've said it before. MOST of the polls concerning Health Care ask the classic stupid quesiton. "Do you support it, Yes or No." Support WHAT? Heck even Congress doesn't know yet WHAT the final bill will look like, what it will include. It's still a work in progress. Many folks say "No" because the bill doesn't go far enough! They WANT a public option, they want something different with the abortion part, they want some item changed here or there. This is fundamentally why a "simple" Yes or No answer in a poll is ridiculous.

The Robert Woods foundation came a little close to getting a true feeling about what the American people think. But still, it's just another poll, can't take it to seriously.

Ridicule? HA! I aint got nothing on the conservative's around here. Many of whom have taken "ridicule" of anyone who leans left to the highest possible "expert" level.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

If you like Poll numbers, and I think they are largely irrelevant myself unless an election is VERY near, here's one you might find interesting:

From the nonpartisan Robert Wood Johnson Foundation:


I've said it before. MOST of the polls concerning Health Care ask the classic stupid quesiton. "Do you support it, Yes or No." Support WHAT? Heck even Congress doesn't know yet WHAT the final bill will look like, what it will include. It's still a work in progress. Many folks say "No" because the bill doesn't go far enough! They WANT a public option, they want something different with the abortion part, they want some item changed here or there. This is fundamentally why a "simple" Yes or No answer in a poll is ridiculous.

The Robert Woods foundation came a little close to getting a true feeling about what the American people think. But still, it's just another poll, can't take it to seriously.

Ridicule? HA! I aint got nothing on the conservative's around here. Many of whom have taken "ridicule" of anyone who leans left to the highest possible "expert" level.

Mission statement from the RWF website:

"The Robert Wood Johnson Foundation seeks to improve the health and health care of all Americans. Our efforts focus on improving both the health of everyone in America and their health care—how it's delivered, how it's paid for, and how well it does for patients and their families."


Now who could possibly be more biased than they are? Ya think they're going to say people don't want what we're selling?
Agreeing that some reform in health care is necessary should be nearly unanimous. But that is in fixing the few problems in the best health care system on the planet. Fixing with logic, reason, and results orientated. NOT scrapping an excellent system so the worst dregs of society can have insurance they can't pay for, and putting everyone's health under Government control. Our HEALTH CARE SYSTEM HAS one MAJOR PROBLEM, COST. Does it take a year of BS and 4000 pages to adress cost? NO! Its all about control, NOT fixing anything!

[Ron61]

I know that the final version of this so called health reform bill isn't in yet, but go read the darn thing. I haven't begin to read the whole 2,000+ pages, but so far what I have read is ridiculous. It is the biggest PORK PACKAGE in history. Anything in it that would help with health reform is there by accident. It is all about money and what those crooks can get out of it, not about helping people. Also the Constitution, which ever our beloved leaders admit they ignore, says the Govt. is OF the people, FOR the people, and BY the people. But they do not have the right by the Constitution to force anyone to buy health insurance, green cars, or anything else. And so far as reading the bill, most of them freely admit they haven't read it. And it sure as the devil will not lower health costs, just make getting anything done more expensive and harder.

The health system does need some work, but this monstrosity is not what it needs.

Ron

[Excaliber]

From the New York Times, a similiar poll finding as the Robert Wood Johnson poll:

...85 percent of respondents said the health care system needed to be fundamentally changed or completely rebuilt...

Support for Health Care reform is wide spread, I would even dare to say, "vast".

[Excaliber]

Interesting that the New York Times poll BACKED UP the Robert Woods poll. I don't know, maybe the Times are hard left leaning as well? There is no question you could find other polls with the same results as the Times and the Robert poll.

You simply can't deny that MOST Americans, by far, support some kind of Health Care reform. Unless your swimming in the De-Nile "ocean".

Now Ron makes a valid point:

The health system does need some work, but this monstrosity is not what it needs.

Well maybe, maybe not, but at least we are doing "something". Another Times poll asked the question (paraphrased here): "Who is better suited to develop Health Care Reform. Republicans or Democrats?" Over whelming response was Democrats. In fact one of FOUR Republicans answered Democrats! You guys like Polls? On the internet you can find plenty of them to support your position, yea or nea.

And yes, the Government can "force" you to buy insurance under the Commerce clause. Now here's the kicker to that clause. IF you can't afford it there are provisions to address that. So it's not a total "force" aspect. It will survive a legal challenge. Don't pay your taxes? Go to jail. CAN'T pay your taxes? The Gov will work something out.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Interesting that the New York Times poll BACKED UP the Robert Woods poll. I don't know, maybe the Times are hard left leaning as well? There is no question you could find other polls with the same results as the Times and the Robert poll.

You simply can't deny that MOST Americans, by far, support some kind of Health Care reform. Unless your swimming in the De-Nile "ocean".

Now Ron makes a valid point:


Well maybe, maybe not, but at least we are doing "something". Another Times poll asked the question (paraphrased here): "Who is better suited to develop Health Care Reform. Republicans or Democrats?" Over whelming response was Democrats. In fact one of FOUR Republicans answered Democrats! You guys like Polls? On the internet you can find plenty of them to support your position, yea or nea.

And yes, the Government can "force" you to buy insurance under the Commerce clause. Now here's the kicker to that clause. IF you can't afford it there are provisions to address that. So it's not a total "force" aspect. It will survive a legal challenge. Don't pay your taxes? Go to jail. CAN'T pay your taxes? The Gov will work something out.

Are you claiming that you don't know that the New York Times is a branch office of Obum's White House.

And I too have said some fixes are needed, FIXES, not demolition and rebuilding without any REAL knowledge of how to or what it will cost.
Obama and the Democrats all lied when they tried to portray our health care TREATMENT as substandard.
Then they all lied when the tried to make Doctors and Hospitals the villians, saying they were cheating us.
Then they lied about 45, 46, or 47 million having NO ACCESS to health care.
Then they all lied about outrageous policies and procedures and profits of insurance companies, All of which the politicians APPROVED and regulate. But insurance companies stuck as an appropriate villain, helped by completely biased unquestioning media like the NYT and NBC, CBS, ABC, And CNN.
So now they have passed a Senate health INSURANCE bill, NOT HEALTH CARE, claiming all the problems not solved by 100 years of very close insurance regulation , will be solved by even more regulation by the same politicians. I am embarrassed by the national stupidity.

[jolsen42]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Interesting that the New York Times poll BACKED UP the Robert Woods poll. I don't know, maybe the Times are hard left leaning as well?

You simply can't deny that MOST Americans, by far, support some kind of Health Care reform. Unless your swimming in the De-Nile "ocean".




And yes, the Government can "force" you to buy insurance under the Commerce clause.

Good Christ man, how do you come up with this stuff. Robert Wood Johnson is non-partisian?
The New York Times is not a hard left leaning Publication?
And lastly the government can "force" you to buy insurance under the Commerce Clause? Maybe they will force you, but there is nothing in the Constitution allowing them to.

Commerce Clause- Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3

To regulate commerce with foreign nations and among the several states,
and with Indian tribes.

Nothing about health care. John O Have a Merry Christmas

[Excaliber]

DE-NIAL on a grandeous scale!

Million of Americans have no health insurance, they will die earlier than those who do. Health care for them is sub-standard, they will get only very basic needs meet as they near their death. Insurance policies are outrageous! That is why they are in the top 35 profit makers in the Fortune 500 list. ABOVE them are doctors and associated health care providers.

I am embarrassed by the national conservatives.

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Insurance policies are outrageous! That is why they are in the top 35 profit makers in the Fortune 500 list.

Ernie, let's clarify--I believe there are around 50 industries included in the survey to which you referred (not 500).

In a Fortune ranking I saw, the health insurance industry was ranked as 38th most profitable (out of 51 industries; not 38th out of 500 industries).

Let's remind everybody of YOUR recent post.

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Because most of the Lounge is hard right, I feel compelled to offer that opposing view, hard left. But to tell you the truth, sometimes I have hard time believing some of what I post as well.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

DE-NIAL on a grandeous scale!

Million of Americans have no health insurance, they will die earlier than those who do. Health care for them is sub-standard, they will get only very basic needs meet as they near their death. Insurance policies are outrageous! That is why they are in the top 35 profit makers in the Fortune 500 list. ABOVE them are doctors and associated health care providers.

I am embarrassed by the national conservatives.

WHEN are you going to address the simple FACT that insurance company rates and profits are and have been 100% CONTROLLED,REGULATED, AND APPROVED, by politicians of both parties.

And PROFIT is one of the best words in our language, without profit and the desire for profit, we would not exist.
And if the liberal dreamers get their way, we won't exist.

[Wes Tausend]

Originally Posted by Dan40

...Agreeing that some reform in health care is necessary should be nearly unanimous. But that is in fixing the few problems in the best health care system on the planet. Fixing with logic, reason, and results orientated. NOT scrapping an excellent system so the worst dregs of society can have insurance they can't pay for, and putting everyone's health under Government control. Our HEALTH CARE SYSTEM HAS one MAJOR PROBLEM, COST. Does it take a year of BS and 4000 pages to adress cost? NO! Its all about control, NOT fixing anything!...

***

...So now they have passed a Senate health INSURANCE bill, NOT HEALTH CARE, claiming all the problems not solved by 100 years of very close insurance regulation , will be solved by even more regulation by the same politicians. I am embarrassed by the national stupidity...

***

WHEN are you going to address the simple FACT that insurance company rates and profits are and have been 100% CONTROLLED,REGULATED, AND APPROVED, by politicians of both parties.

And PROFIT is one of the best words in our language, without profit and the desire for profit, we would not exist.
And if the liberal dreamers get their way, we won't exist.

Dan,

I see some common ground here. I agree cost is all of it, which prompted me to point out what a disproportionate amount of my (and yours too, probably) monthly outgo goes to healthcare now. I think the "change" will be a useless and possibly damaging execise. Not sure I agree we currently have the best system, but we no doubt do have some outstanding people in the medical field.

Agree it's become an insurance issue rather than actual healthcare. It is embarassing. But deregulation starting with Carter, escalating with Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush, has nearly brought this country to its knees. Something has become fishy with letting the corporate union foxes self-guard the henhouse. I don't see it as any different than letting labor unions self-regulate themselves. Where would we be?

Regulation is what governments are for and it's about time they started doing it right. Probably ain't gonna happen though; you're right about that. Somebody is pocketing a fortune and they want to keep it that way.

PROFIT is a good word in our language, but what the H is profit? Is it money one makes off other people because they somehow foolishly lost it? Or is it something never lost that occurs because somebody worked hard to get it? I think REWARD FOR HARD WORK is a better set of words.

I don't mind the few bucks that bottom feeder welfarees cost me. But I'm sick of lazy welfare recipients at the top that take fully half of everything I work for. 1% of America owns 51% of the wealth and it's been growing. I assume always taking 51% of the pie, or better, is how it's done. It's often called profit. Maybe excess profit would be more accurate.

Have a great holiday, everyone!
Wes

...

[Excaliber]

Stentor, when it comes to OPINION, hmmm, I tend to vary, still looking for the right data on some issues. Some posts are as much a question as a statement. Because you see, I'm here to learn, not preach.

When it comes to FACTS, that's a different story! Now to clairify your ranking on the most profitable industries, the THE FORTUNE 500, we find Life and Health Care Insurance at NUMBER NINE! Among that group we find AFLAC at #3, by the way. Now further down the chart we find "Managed Care", they come in at #28.

So your right, my listing at #35 was incorrect, thanks for pointing out it's really NUMBER NINE! TOP TEN baby, TOP TEN!

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

When it comes to FACTS, that's a different story! Now to clairify your ranking on the most profitable industries, the THE FORTUNE 500, we find Life and Health Care Insurance at NUMBER NINE! Among that group we find AFLAC at #3, by the way. Now further down the chart we find "Managed Care", they come in at #28.
So your right, my listing at #35 was incorrect, thanks for pointing out it's really NUMBER NINE! TOP TEN baby, TOP TEN!

Ex, still not sure to what ranking you are referring. Here's a link to Fortune's 2009 ranking of the most profitable industries. As you will see, there are a variety of ways to measure "profitability." When looking at one of the most common metrics--return on revenues--"Insurance and Managed Care" was number 35 out of 53 industries (with profits representing 2.2% of revenues). This hardly suggests that these companies are printing money.

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortu...tries/profits/

[Excaliber]

That looks like one of the charts I saw when I first reported #35. Same type of chart, perhaps using different data points, showed #9 and #28.

This is a good example of how miss leading "polls" and "charts" can be and why they should be taken with a grain of salt. In almost every case you could find a poll, chart, a pundits blog, a respected news source or some other "worthy" article to back up what ever point you are trying to make.

On the internet, you can find it! Which is primarily why I don't put a lot of stock in poll numbers. Unfortunately they DO have significant influence on the politicians, much more than they should is my concern. Kind of a "short sided" approach to "investment" if you would. I prefer to think long term, not short term. I think the short term thinking is a large part of our current economic crisis.

No matter how you rank it, any company would LOVE to be in the Top 50 profit earners in the US, heck I'd settle for #51 in a heart beat!

[Stentor]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

No matter how you rank it, any company would LOVE to be in the Top 50 profit earners in the US, heck I'd settle for #51 in a heart beat!

Ernie, the aforementioned Fortune list is a ranking of industries by profit; not a ranking of companies.

If you are settling for number 51 in the ranking, your profit--as expressed as a percentage of revenues--would be negative 10%; so you'd be losing money.

Incidentally, the Fortune 500 is a ranking of the largest companies in the US. The list to which I attached a link is a separate ranking of entire industries (not individual companies).

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by Stentor

Ernie, the aforementioned Fortune list is a ranking of industries by profit; not a ranking of companies.

If you are settling for number 51 in the ranking, your profit--as expressed as a percentage of revenues--would be negative 10%; so you'd be losing money.

Incidentally, the Fortune 500 is a ranking of the largest companies in the US. The list to which I attached a link is a separate ranking of entire industries (not individual companies).

Facts are a waste of time. E answers all facts with 100% liberal biased ideology or ill considered opinions.
Facts are just inconvenient to him and are ignored like actual history is ignored by the liberal dreamers.