Gun Control

[Tenrocca]

Originally Posted by fordracing65

And Fosters beer, that crap tastes worst than Pabts blue ribbon...

No one, absolutely NO ONE in Australia drinks Fosters. I dont think you can even buy it at bottle-o's anymore. We used to ship all that $hit to countries that didn't know any better and laugh whenever it was mentioned at being Australian.

Anyway, its going to be interesting when Hillary gets in.

[cycleguy55]

The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday turned away a challenge by gun rights activists to an ordinance enacted by a Chicago suburb that bans assault weapons and large-capacity magazines.

The refusal by the nine justices to hear the case, coming at a time of fierce debate over the nation’s gun laws following a series of mass shootings, means that the 2013 ordinance passed by the city of Highland Park, Illinois remains in effect. Two of the court’s conservatives members, Clarence Thomas and Antonin Scalia, said the court should have taken the case.

NRA Furious As Supreme Court Upholds Common Sense Ban On Assault Weapons «

[Tenrocca]

Geez Ron, At no point have I said Australia is better than the US. Both countries have their good and bad points. Any attempted point scoring on other issues has been instigated by others.

Good advice and good information is worthwhile no matter the source. Dont get all high and mighty cos you "aint listening to someone from a another country". Many great ideas have come from someone or somewhere not too connected with the situation.

Likewise to you Ron as I said to FR65. Your probably a top bloke, just think a little differently on this issue. Have a great Christmas mate.

[Jaydee]

Actually, many times that I hear of these shootings, I think, why hasn't anybody got a gun to shoot them. Or even try to tackle the guy. The one in France, he started shooting in the middle of a dance floor full of people, and nobody tackled him. So I guess out of fear, you run. Even whilst the guy is reloading in some situations, nobody does anything out of fear. So I'm asking the question to anyone who's licenced to carry, would you stay and fight?
I agree, I would like to have a firearm in my house if it was easier to obtain. All I have is a crossbow. I think in a way it's sad that in the land of the free, that you need to carry a firearm because you think there's a chance of needing it. I don't consider that as being free. I've seen many videos of people carrying a firearm in the US and then getting hassled by the cops. Overnight your government took away your rights to privacy after 9/11 and can tap your phones, search your house etc. We are only as free as any government lets us.
JD

[Tim7139]

Originally Posted by Jaydee

Actually, many times that I hear of these shootings, I think, why hasn't anybody got a gun to shoot them. Or even try to tackle the guy. The one in France, he started shooting in the middle of a dance floor full of people, and nobody tackled him. So I guess out of fear, you run. Even whilst the guy is reloading in some situations, nobody does anything out of fear. So I'm asking the question to anyone who's licenced to carry, would you stay and fight?
I agree, I would like to have a firearm in my house if it was easier to obtain. All I have is a crossbow. I think in a way it's sad that in the land of the free, that you need to carry a firearm because you think there's a chance of needing it. I don't consider that as being free. I've seen many videos of people carrying a firearm in the US and then getting hassled by the cops. Overnight your government took away your rights to privacy after 9/11 and can tap your phones, search your house etc. We are only as free as any government lets us.
JD

No friend, our govt. cannot do those things, none of them. Maybe you should seek alternative scources other than YouTube?

[DanEC]

Originally Posted by Tim7139

No friend, our govt. cannot do those things, none of them. Maybe you should seek alternative scources other than YouTube?

Agreed - I don't know where they come up with this dis-information.

[kanuck]

Some of my buddies collections, When I am reincarnated I want to come back as Dan Bilzerian.






Dean

[flipper35]

A quick point. Columbine, Newtown and the latest one were all carried out by people who were not the legal owners of the weapons. The first two were stolen and the third was given to them illegally.

[fordracing65]

How many lives are saved in the USA because of guns, you don't hear about that. If you knew the USA constitution you would understand why we are allowed guns...
Put a big block in your car, then we can talk, oh ya you cant, your government wont let you, spoon feed...no carbs either, might as well put another shrimp on the Barbie and enjoy that great Fosters, oh ya its not Australian it American right...how backass is that...

[DanEC]

[quote=fordracing65;1374186] If you knew the USA constitution you would understand why we are allowed guns...
QUOTE]

Ditto - I've been reading the book A Bridge of Strangers that the recent Tom Hanks movie about the 57 Russian Spy trial movie was adapted from. In reading it I was refreshened as to how the Bill of Rights came to be in the form it did (been out of school for a long time now). Many states refused to ratify the original Constitution until it was amended to include the Bill of Rights and the first 10 amendments. The feared it gave the Federal Government too many centralized power over the states and did not provide sufficiently for the protection of individual freedoms. Only after the Bill of Rights was added in 1791 including the second amendment, did the states ratify the Constitution. Our rights to bear arms is wrapped up in the same package with the right to freedom of speech, the right to a fair trial, search and arrest warrants, the right of assembly, etc. Without the Bill of Rights the US may have never have seen the Constitution ratified by the states and our Nation of Freedom might not exist as it does today. The Bill of Rights are the keystone to our Constitution and the 2nd Amendment as much so as any of the others.

[Gun Doc]

Cycleguy55, like the old adage goes; “Figures lie, and liars figure.” Before you get bent out of shape, let me assure you I am not calling you a liar, just misinformed…

A closer look at the cited figures will quickly show that many of the gun deaths cited are due to suicide (New Mexico 10.3 per 100K, OK 11.1 per 100K, WY 87%, AR 66%, MT 85%, AK 80%). According to the CDC, suicides accounted for 21,175 of the 33,636 deaths by firearm (for all causes) in 2013. According to the FBI, 9,199 of these deaths by firearms were classified as murder. During this same period, law enforcement used firearms in 461 cases of “justifiable homicide,” an additional 281 cases of “justifiable homicide by private citizen” were reported.

38%, or 5,375 of all murders (by all means) in 2013 were committed by Black, or African Americans. Of these offenders, 3,666 were between the age of 17 and 34. Blacks were also disproportionally the victims of murder at 51.1%, or 6,261 people, 3,945 who were between 17 and 34. These statistics are particularly alarming giving the fact that persons identifying themselves as “black, or African American” comprise 13.2% of the population (US Census 2014) but over half the total of all murders.

Of the thirteen states with the highest number of murders by firearm, only one, Louisiana, is on your “Top Ten” list. Those states, CA, GA, IL, IN, LA, MD, MI, MO, NJ, NY, OH, PN and TX account for 5,833 murders by firearm. California leads the list with 1,224. Oh and by the way, California has the toughest gun laws of ANY state.

So what does all this data point to? 1. Most deaths by gun in this country are by suicide. 2. Young African Americans are much more likely to be involved in gun violence, both as offenders and victims (sometimes both) than any other group. 3. States with large metropolitan concentrations are more likely to suffer from gun violence than rural areas. 4. Most victims know their attackers (at least casually) 5. Most murders stem from arguments of some type. 6. Most gun murders are by handguns (5,782)

So, we know that most murders with firearms are perpetrated by someone with a hand gun, most often in a large metropolitan area by someone known to the victim who have had some sort of argument. A disproportionally large percentage (based on total population) of these crimes are “black-on-black” crime. Very few murders are committed by someone with an “assault weapon.” Fewer still in those “downright empty” places you speak of. In fact Illinois (364), California (1224) and New York (362) have many more gun deaths (murder) than say Montana (9), Wyoming (9) or Oklahoma (127).

Since November 30 1998, to legally purchase a handgun in the US you must first pass the National Instant Criminal Background Check System to insure you are legally able to purchase and possess a handgun. Many states and municipalities have additional requirements to purchase and own handguns. In California, for example, you must first obtain a Firearms Safety Certificate after passing a written test then find a gun on the state approved list. This gun must be microstamping enabled to affix a micro stamp to the ammunition if manufactured after 2007, wait a mandatory ten days to allow law enforcement to conduct further background checks and purchase no more than one gun per person, per month. All that and California still ranks number ONE in murders by firearm!!

There are over 300,000,000 guns in this country, a number pretty close to our total population. It is insane to think that these guns will simple “go away” with some law. Oh, and then there is that pesky document call the Constitution to deal with. What most fail to grasp is that the Constitution merely guaranties our unalienable rights. It does NOT grant us those rights. We were all born with them. I have the inherent right to self-defense, because I have the inherent right to LIFE, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I choose to defend myself and my family with a firearm. I am responsible, law abiding and have been properly trained. I know what lethal force means and will always shoot until the threat is neutralized. I would NEVER use lethal force unless I was prepared to kill. I do think any responsible gun owner should take it upon themselves to get the training required to safely handle and use firearms. If you are going to carry; PRACTICE, PRACTICE, and PRACTICE! Shooting is no different than throwing a pass, pitching, or hitting a baseball, or any other physical activity. They all take practice and when under stress, you draw on muscle memory to perform. An armed person with no training is more dangerous than an unarmed person in a hostile environment.

All of the above facts come directly from the FBI, CDC, or US Census Bureau, NOT some web site with an agenda.

[Armrer]

Originally Posted by Gun Doc

Cycleguy55, like the old adage goes; “Figures lie, and liars figure.” Before you get bent out of shape, let me assure you I am not calling you a liar, just misinformed…

A closer look at the cited figures will quickly show that many of the gun deaths cited are due to suicide (New Mexico 10.3 per 100K, OK 11.1 per 100K, WY 87%, AR 66%, MT 85%, AK 80%). According to the CDC, suicides accounted for 21,175 of the 33,636 deaths by firearm (for all causes) in 2013. According to the FBI, 9,199 of these deaths by firearms were classified as murder. During this same period, law enforcement used firearms in 461 cases of “justifiable homicide,” an additional 281 cases of “justifiable homicide by private citizen” were reported.

38%, or 5,375 of all murders (by all means) in 2013 were committed by Black, or African Americans. Of these offenders, 3,666 were between the age of 17 and 34. Blacks were also disproportionally the victims of murder at 51.1%, or 6,261 people, 3,945 who were between 17 and 34. These statistics are particularly alarming giving the fact that persons identifying themselves as “black, or African American” comprise 13.2% of the population (US Census 2014) but over half the total of all murders.

Of the thirteen states with the highest number of murders by firearm, only one, Louisiana, is on your “Top Ten” list. Those states, CA, GA, IL, IN, LA, MD, MI, MO, NJ, NY, OH, PN and TX account for 5,833 murders by firearm. California leads the list with 1,224. Oh and by the way, California has the toughest gun laws of ANY state.

So what does all this data point to? 1. Most deaths by gun in this country are by suicide. 2. Young African Americans are much more likely to be involved in gun violence, both as offenders and victims (sometimes both) than any other group. 3. States with large metropolitan concentrations are more likely to suffer from gun violence than rural areas. 4. Most victims know their attackers (at least casually) 5. Most murders stem from arguments of some type. 6. Most gun murders are by handguns (5,782)

So, we know that most murders with firearms are perpetrated by someone with a hand gun, most often in a large metropolitan area by someone known to the victim who have had some sort of argument. A disproportionally large percentage (based on total population) of these crimes are “black-on-black” crime. Very few murders are committed by someone with an “assault weapon.” Fewer still in those “downright empty” places you speak of. In fact Illinois (364), California (1224) and New York (362) have many more gun deaths (murder) than say Montana (9), Wyoming (9) or Oklahoma (127).

Since November 30 1998, to legally purchase a handgun in the US you must first pass the National Instant Criminal Background Check System to insure you are legally able to purchase and possess a handgun. Many states and municipalities have additional requirements to purchase and own handguns. In California, for example, you must first obtain a Firearms Safety Certificate after passing a written test then find a gun on the state approved list. This gun must be microstamping enabled to affix a micro stamp to the ammunition if manufactured after 2007, wait a mandatory ten days to allow law enforcement to conduct further background checks and purchase no more than one gun per person, per month. All that and California still ranks number ONE in murders by firearm!!

There are over 300,000,000 guns in this country, a number pretty close to our total population. It is insane to think that these guns will simple “go away” with some law. Oh, and then there is that pesky document call the Constitution to deal with. What most fail to grasp is that the Constitution merely guaranties our unalienable rights. It does NOT grant us those rights. We were all born with them. I have the inherent right to self-defense, because I have the inherent right to LIFE, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I choose to defend myself and my family with a firearm. I am responsible, law abiding and have been properly trained. I know what lethal force means and will always shoot until the threat is neutralized. I would NEVER use lethal force unless I was prepared to kill. I do think any responsible gun owner should take it upon themselves to get the training required to safely handle and use firearms. If you are going to carry; PRACTICE, PRACTICE, and PRACTICE! Shooting is no different than throwing a pass, pitching, or hitting a baseball, or any other physical activity. They all take practice and when under stress, you draw on muscle memory to perform. An armed person with no training is more dangerous than an unarmed person in a hostile environment.

All of the above facts come directly from the FBI, CDC, or US Census Bureau, NOT some web site with an agenda.

Gun Doc,

You nailed it. However, even CDC stats are highly suspect, Congress cut their funding and took them out of the gun violence 'study' business as their numbers were rigged by this administration. In their claim of guns killing 'children', they neglected to state they included all criminals 18 years and under. Gang on gang killings, all DOC and LE threat stops were lumped in as well.

UN uses bogus numbers too, also Japan. In Japan, 'suicide' rate is twice the US. If a father comes home, kills his entire family then takes his own life, JDOJ
rates it as a 'group suicide'! Everyone touts Japan as this utopia. Wrong.

As I said earlier "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics". Or "surveys" in this day and age. Process all the stats you want. Unless you personally compiled every instance and vetted the facts, it's virtually meaningless. VW comes to mind, look how much brass they showed when they cheated the entire US, Europe and South Korea on emission numbers. And that was under severe financial and legal consequences. They still pulled it off, until caught. What's a bogus study in the scheme of things?

Living in the real world should be your point of reference, and ignore any political study or survey and take it for what it is. Propaganda.

I'm a DoD Contractor and reserve LE. I have seen evil and its carnage. To walk around in Condition White in this world, well.. that's a poor life choice-

[leon]

If good people don't have legal guns to defend themselves against bad people with illegal guns tell me how that works and where is the logic in that?

[Gun Doc]

Armrer,

Yes, I know that the CDC can taint their facts. Most of the data I used was from FBI stats, such as demographics and murder rates. You are absolutely correct in stating Japan’s suicide rate is twice that of the US.

My point was the anti-gun crowd loves to lump ALL gun deaths into one “box” hoping Joe Public will think they are all criminal acts, when in fact, two thirds of all gun deaths in the US are from suicide. They also love to use the “per capita” rate when citing their “facts” much like Cycleguy55 did. The per capita murder rate MAY be higher in Montana than in Michigan, but the sheer numbers of murders don’t even come close. As I stated previously, most violent gun crime takes place in urban settings, just like every other major, violent crime. If they were to look at per capita murder rates by firearms in large urban settings, they would see a very different picture. I am NOT more likely to “end up on a slab with a bullet in you than if you live in Illinois, California or New York” no matter how much they wish it so.

I have been in the profession of arms for the past 42 years and am a former ILEFI instructor. Like you, I’ve been there, done that more times than I care to remember…

[Armrer]

Gun Doc,

I was tracking you from the start. I prefer to use FBI stats in any docs I generate, as the data is the least 'tainted'. However, their focus is narrow, and any other Gov data is suspect. I agree with your your reply to Cycleguy55.

Funny, I could walk thru South Central with a Rolex clear taped to my forehead at midnight and make it to a Denny's, but if I had a gang tag.. I'd be DRT in a NY second. You stated well.

Like the M134 in your avatar : D Like your comments as well regarding everyone who is capable to get firearms training and stay on the skill. It's gonna get bumpy. We all have a responsibility as good guys to come out on top.

[fordracing65]

We have big blocks, we have carbs ,and we have guns, all 3 things you can never have, spoon feed nation, I love the place but would never want to live there...If Aussi ever needs military help you know who will be there, the United States Forces with all our weapons to defend your asses, we do it every where else...God forbid ISIS ever comes to Aussi...

[Gun Doc]

Armrer,

That's me in the avatar...Just another day at the office!

[Armrer]

Originally Posted by Gun Doc

Armrer,

That's me in the avatar...Just another day at the office!

Nice office

[Gun Doc]

Fordracing65,

Actually the Aussies have always been very good allies! They definitely don’t back down from a fight! From The Western Front in WWI to Nadzab in WWII, Korea and most recently Afghanistan, Aussies and Americans have fought, and died side-by-side. They are true warriors! Don’t know much about their politics, but I would always welcome an Aussie in my foxhole!

[fordracing65]

Originally Posted by Gun Doc

Fordracing65,

Actually the Aussies have always been very good allies! They definitely don’t back down from a fight! From The Western Front in WWI to Nadzab in WWII, Korea and most recently Afghanistan, Aussies and Americans have fought, and died side-by-side. They are true warriors! Don’t know much about their politics, but I would always welcome an Aussie in my foxhole!

Mee too, I'm a history major, but come on...