Mr. aHarris:

I’m not saying that being the victim of collateral damage is OK. I’m saying that it happens in warfare. I’m also saying that the US takes far greater precautions to prevent it than, say, screaming lunatics who hide behind women and children in hospitals, schools, markets and mosques; kidnap and behead infidels, and teach their pre-teen children to strap on dynamite belts and blow themselves up.

As I stated earlier, 26,000 weren’t the victims of collateral damage. They were the victims of deliberate, planned homicidal actions by a group of insane animals bent on the destruction of people like, well, you. You can’t seriously blame the victims of Muslim car bombs and Sunni death squads on the coalition forces.

Since you obviously don’t understand US law, the First Amendment is not, in fact, absolute. There are recognized limits on the protections afforded by the law. What I said, since you seem unable to grasp the concept, is that aiding the enemy in time of war is treason. The time for debate on whether or not to engage a homicidal force took place some time ago. The duly elected representatives of the people decided to back the President in his efforts to protect not only the US but the rest of the world from a movement which wishes to enslave the world into a 7th century theocracy. Despite the flip-flops from many of those representative elected officials since then, the vote was solidly on the side of the President to enter into armed conflict with the terrorists. THAT was the time to discuss whether or not to do this, not four years into the war. To do so now weakens the country’s resolve and aids the enemy in its battle with the civilized world. Aiding the enemy in time of war is treason.

The pull-out of the US from Southeast Asia was DIRECTLY responsible for the takeover of the Pol Pot regime following the collapse of the ruling military junta in April 1975. Pol Pot then instituted the “agrarian reforms” which resulted in the loss of 20% of the country’s population. Had the US been successful in South Vietnam, Pol Pot wouldn’t have been able to launch his genocide because he would have lost the support of his primary backers, the North Vietnamese. It wasn’t a matter of “scaring” him; it was a matter of cutting off his primary source of supply. The assertion that the US withdrawal led to the genocide isn’t ridiculous; it’s documented fact. From the United Human Rights Council report: “By 1975, the U.S. had withdrawn its troops from Vietnam. Cambodia's government, plagued by corruption and incompetence, also lost its American military support. Taking advantage of the opportunity, Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge army, consisting of teenage peasant guerrillas, marched into Phnom Penh and on April 17 effectively seized control of Cambodia.” For the record, I was a helicopter pilot stationed in Thailand during the fall of Phnom Penh and Saigon, and my unit participated in both evacuations. Your view of history is misinformed.

Mr. Marbury:

It is my understanding that over a dozen known terrorists have been apprehended crossing illegally from Canada into the US.

This US GAO report documents how easy it is to enter the US from either Mexico or Canada:

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d06976t.pdf

Heck, even CBS (the Clinton Broadcasting System) says Canada is a terrorist haven:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in706993.shtml

It’s impossible to tell how many have come in since apparently you folks have removed most of your law enforcement from the ports of entry. From my personal experience, your immigration folks seem far more concerned with ensuring that we greedy Americans don’t come up to take work from the poor defenseless Canadians than you are with apprehending terrorists. (Personal data point on that one.) But perhaps you're right; maybe we should wait for the radioactive dust cloud to settle over what used to be Chicago before we jump to any conclusions about whether or not terrorists are infiltrating our country from the socialist haven up north. I'm sure that Osama hasn't figured out yet that there is more than one border with the US.

Good stuff from various points of view, but let's keep it reasonably nice.

Thanks.

Second box of popcorn. :D :D :D

Most people correctly do not equate the "occupation" of Iraq as an active battle in the war on terror.

IF we had suffered the same amount of casualties in Afghanistan looking for OBL, nary a peep would have been heard.

JMHO.

:LOL: :LOL:

Chopper

Interesting that you chose this article from CBS. Did you read it? "The Canadian Security Intelligence Service, counterpart of the CIA, said terrorist representatives are actively raising money, procuring weapons, "manipulating immigrant communities" and facilitating travel to and from the United States and other countries. " These people move back and forth across the border, not just from Canada into the US. The US has exactly the same problem with terrorist groups as we do here. I recently read an article about a terrorist training camp in upstate New York that has been in operation for years but goes untouched by the authorities. The best defence we have is co-operation between the authorities in the two countries.

As far as terrorists moving into the US from Canada, most American news services falsely reported that the 9/11 terrorists entered the US from Canada. In fact not one single 9/11 terrorist entered the US from Canada.

From my personal experience, your immigration folks seem far more concerned with ensuring that we greedy Americans don’t come up to take work from the poor defenseless Canadians than you are with apprehending terrorists. (Personal data point on that one.) I am sorry but I realy don't understand this statement at all. There are lots of Americans living and working in Canada just as there are lots of Canadians living and working in the US.

But perhaps you're right; maybe we should wait for the radioactive dust cloud to settle over what used to be Chicago before we jump to any conclusions about whether or not terrorists are infiltrating our country from the socialist haven up north. I'm sure that Osama hasn't figured out yet that there is more than one border with the US. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder towards Canada. I am very sorry that you feel that way but there is little I can do to change that.

Have a nice day, I'm out of here. This thread is beginning to resemble a dog chasing his tail. :eek: :( :o

Wayne

Chopper

As you know, the Kymer Rouge were originally irregulars under the North Vietnamese Army but eventually became rivals. The main backer of Pol Pot's regimen was not North Vietnam but China. China had been suppliers of munitions to the Kymer for years before the genocide. The alignment of North Vietnam with Soviet Communism strengthened the Kymer ties with China who backed the Kymer Rouge because of their rivalry with the Soviets. Pol Pot adopted a Chinese form of Communism. Eventually, the Pol Pot regime was overthrown by the North Vietnamese. Interestingly, at one point in the mid 1970's the UN voted on whether to give the seat for Cambodia to the Kymer, recognizing them as the party in power. The resolution was only defeated by 2 votes.

Interestingly too, the bombing of Cambodia during the Vietnam conflict is felt to be the major factor in encouraging the civilian population to join the Kymer Rouge. The US "support" of the government in power may have directly enabled the genocide rather than potentially prevented it. Or am I just misinformed?

on another point...

As some of these 26,000 were killed by US munitions directed at insurgency targets I assume you are not including US servicemen under the rubric of "a group of insane animals bent on the destruction of people".


As for the border with Canada, why would you suggest that the screening of persons travelling into Canada is any less effective than screening of individuals entering the US. Are our security measures that lax? They certainly identified you as a threat to our national security ;)

Andrew

Yup...blame the US for Pol Pot just like everything else.

Andrew...can you say anything good about the US?

I'm beginning to think we're building the fence on the wrong border. I can't perceive any redeeming social value from your quasi-country. He!!, you folks can't even pick grapes.

Jamo, aren't you missing a ":p " or two at the end of that statement? :LOL: :confused: :eek:

We may not be able to pick grapes (I would rather just drink the fermented juice) but we do produce some of the best hockey players in the world. You happen to have a very good hockey team in So Cal that is stocked with Canadian players and the best one comes from Quebec but please don't ask me to spell his name. :LOL: :3DSMILE: :LOL:

Andrew, You stated earlier that 22 Canadians have died in Afganistan. Yesterday seven soldiers lost their lives there when their helicopter was downed, 5 were Americans, 1 was a Brit, and 1 was a Canadian. He was the 56th Canadian to lose his life in Afganistan, not the 23rd.

To all, we can bicker all we want here but we must all respect the efforts our brave soldiers are making so that we can have a better life here. My thoughts and prayers go out to all of the troops (American, Canadian, British, and others) and their families, especially to those that have made the ultimate sacrifice.

Wayne

Jamo

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

You are right, I have been harping on the US. You guys are not all bad. You gave us Rosie O'Donnell, Hillary Clinton and the whole Kennedy clan. :3DSMILE:

We have donated to the betterment of human kind too...Keanu Reeves, Don Cherry and......ummm......ummmm......did I mention Don Cherry.

Andrew

Wayne

Thanks. I stand corrected.

Andrew

Wayne...ok...you correctly moderated me: :p

Andrew... ;)

Jamo,
In response to your earlier question:

Secure our borders - seems only a handful of our legislators (all GOP as far as I know) actually want to enforce our immigration laws.

Stop creating new enemies.

Trade with them - theres nothing like a society having something worth living for to prevent them from strapping bombs to themselves. And that same society will soon pull their support for the idiots who don't see it that way. Countries with a happy middle class will never have a revolution.

Stop giving out foreign aid without getting something in return - such as assistance with terrorist hunting.

Refocus on Afghanistan.- fight them there rather than here:rolleyes:. Al Quaida will follow, but the population is more on our side than theirs (or at least they were before most of you took your eye off that ball). We might even have the added benefit of eliminating some of the drug trade.


So, again - how do we stabilise Iraq when we are a big source of the instability?

Steve

:o

Steve,

I certainly can't answer your question about stabilizing Iraq as it seems that part of the world has been unstable since the beginning of recorded history. I don't think us just withdrawing our troops will stabilize anything. If anything, maybe withdraw our forces to the oil fields, set up a security perimeter, and take the oil and let all the factions that have been fighting each other for what seems forever have at it. Then if and when one of them comes out on top, deal with them. I just honestly don't think there is any answer to this and no person, no matter how they try can get things back to whatever they call normal in that part of the world. The Muslims seem to consider any one that isn't one of them an infidel, and all infidels should be killed. So how do you sit down and talk to a group like that about a solution to an age old problem. They hated us before this begin, but were just not so vocal about it and weren't attacking us. I really doubt if either of us will be alive when whatever is going to happen finally happens. And now with the news media hyping the Smallpox thing, that is just another thing that is thrown into the mix to panic people. And they are correct in saying that we don't have enough vaccine for even out troops, because once it was considered wiped out they quit making the vaccine. Then yesterday on the news I saw some Russian General had said that Russia has I think he said 4o missiles with 10 warheads each full of the smallpox virus that they can explode over American cities. I know this is rambling and not even a suggestion of a solution, but what would be a good place to start?

Ron :confused:

Not true, unless you want to be in the noted group. Now, I'm not saying that you are, it's your choice.

That's simply BS - the demobulbs would have a field day with that scenario, also.

We may have to all come up there and take your Cobra away. It's an American dream car.

Ron,
I'm frustrated also. Staying in Iraq is a bad idea. So is leaving. I hate to say it, but under Hussein it actually was stable. It was not a good thing for us, but it was better than what we have now.

Jamo pointed out earlier that he thinks Hussein needed to go. I don't entirely disagree with that, but it is also not our place to police the world. He was emasculated when he let the inspectors back in. He was a mild threat, but he was a lot less dangerous than Al Quaida, and he was also tied to geography, while Al Quaida is not.

Al Quaida and the Taliban are also rearing their ugly heads in Afghanistan because we have diverted attention from them. That is bad for us.

I would favour leaving Iraq in phases, hopefully to someplace nearby so that we can be called upon by the Iraqi government if needed. Perhaps a new Cento with the US, Turkey, and Iraq. Ok, so that is not very likely.;)

Most Muslims are not the way you describe. There is a tiny handful that are, and they are the ones we need to be fighting.

Steve

It's an Anglo-American dream car.:rolleyes:

And technically, as a commonwealth realm Queen Elizabeth is the Canadian head of State.

Steve

Open Letter to the troops from Ben Stein
BY: Ben Stein, Open Letter


Dear Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines, National Guard,
Reservists, in Iraq , in the Middle East theater, in Afghanistan ,
in the area nearAfghanistan , in any base anywhere in the world,
and your families:

Let me tell you about why you guys own about 90 percent of the
backbone in the whole world right now and should be happy with
yourselves and proud of whom you are.

It was a dazzlingly hot day here in Rancho Mirage today. I did
small errands like going to the bank to pay my mortgage, finding a
new bed at a price I can afford, practicing driving with my new 5
wood, paying bills for about two hours. I spoke for a long time to
a woman who is going through a nasty child custody fight. I got e-
mails from a woman who was fired today from her job for not paying
attention. I read about multi-billion-dollar mergers in Europe,
Asia , and the Mideast . I noticed how overweight I am, for the
millionth time. In other words, I did a lot of nothing.

Like every other American who is not in the armed forces family, I
basically just rearranged the deck chairs on the Titanic in my
trivial, self-important, meaningless way.

Above all, I talked to a friend of more than forty-three years
who told me he thought his life had no meaning because all he did
was count his money. And, friends in the armed forces, this is the
story of all of America today. We are doing nothing but treading
water while you guys carry on the life or death struggle against
worldwide militant Islamic terrorism. Our lives are about nothing:
paying bills, going to humdrum jobs, waiting until we can go to
sleep and then do it all again. Our most vivid issues are trivia
compared with what you do every day, every minute, every second.

Oprah Winfrey talks a lot about "meaning" in life For her,
"meaning" is dieting and then having her photo on the cover of her
magazine every single month (surely a new world record for
egomania). This is not "meaning."

Meaning is doing for others.

Meaning is risking your life for hers.

Meaning is putting your bodies and families' peace of mind on the
line to defeat some of the most evil, sick killers the world has
ever known.

Meaning is leaving the comfort of home to fight to make sure that
there still will be a home for your family and for your nation and
for free men and women everywhere.

Look, Soldiers and Marines and Sailors and Airmen and Coast
Guardsmen, there are six billion people in this world. The whole
fate of this world turns on what you people, 1.4 million, more or
less, do every day. The fate of mankind depends on what about
2/100 of one percent of the people in this world do every day and
you are those people. And joining you is every Policeman, Fireman,
and Emergency Medical Technician in the country, also holding back
the tide of chaos.

Do you know how important you are? Do you know how indispensable
you are? Do you know how humbly grateful any of us who has a head
on his shoulders is to you? Do you know that if you never do
another thing in your lives, you will always still be heroes? That
we could live without Hollywood or Wall Street or the NFL, but we
cannot live for a week without you?

We are on our knees to you and we bless and pray for you every
moment. And Oprah Winfrey, if she were a size two, would not have
one millionth of your importance, and all of the Wall Street
billionaires will never mean what the least of you do, and if
Barry Bonds hits hundreds of home runs it would not mean as much
as you going on one patrol or driving one truck to the Baghdad
airport.

You are everything to us, as we go through our little days, and
you are in the prayers of the nation and of every decent man and
woman on the planet. That's who you are and what you mean. I hope
you know that.

Love,

Ben Stein