Remember that pilot who's pistol discharged...

[Excaliber]

AMF, no changes to the program should be required. It's 'perfect' as it is written, no need to review the standards or policys concerning this incident. That pilot screwed up, plain and simple, fire his ass, take away his gun, he's an idiot. At least, I'm pretty sure thats what your saying...? The pilots union that called for a review of the gun handling procedures? Well, there just a bunch of pu$$ies I guess...

[HI Cobra]

Wow - I have been gone awhile and I see this argument continues. We should
have the airlines all quit flying - that would eliminate that problem once
and for all. That may not take much time with Aloha and ATA going belly up
in one week - who's next?

[Wes Tausend]

...

When I was 9 or 10, I teased my mom about cocking a single shot .22 rifle that happened to be laying in the back seat of a car she borrowed from my young uncle to haul school kids. Later she had my dad check the rifle, which she had carefully placed in a closet. As I watched, he said, "nobody would be that dumb" (a famous saying of his) and promptly shot a hole through the glass window into our garbage can. Even I knew better than to actually cock it let alone pull the trigger.

When I was 16 I shot a dent towards the bottom of my own passenger door with my buddies .22 revolver. I was in the process of preparing to unload it at the time, while he was driving up beside me. I had been duly warned that, at best, it had a hair trigger or none at all.

I think the pilots DA autos that have been discussed are considered somewhat safe as long as the hammer is not back. And for quick use, the DA will fire the first shot with a very deliberate trigger pull. Please correct me.

Still, I'm surprised that a round would be carried in the chamber or especially left stored (stowed) like that. I wouldn't do that, at least as having a loaded round in the chamber in an automobile etc. I'd suffer the consequence of having to laborously slide the action to chamber a round before firing ...like I insist upon when hunting. Would that render the weapon an unreasonable disadvantage in defense use? Maybe.

Wayne: As far as having a pilot lose his sanity and come out of the cabin screaming and rambling for God. Well much better that ...than fly us into the ground. And it's true that the world would be safer without any weapons at all. Cain wouldn't have killed Abel.

Actually, I guess I'm a bit more concerned with the pilots that don't risk the full analysis to be authorized as sane enough to carry a weapon. The only really trusted pilot in any case is a pilot certified to be rational in my book. If they can fly safely, they can also shoot safely. Alternatively, the only difference is in the number of victims. What the heck?

Or, maybe, with more world weapons, that, perhaps foolish, Abel would have been properly armed and we would be talking about the legendary Cain-Abel stand-off to this very day.


...

[Excaliber]

One recommendation to come out of this is to place a Warning on the gun:

[Ron61]

Won't work Ernie. It has to be in at least 3 languages for it to be legal. Besides when I was at my last safety class we had to shoot the way the FBI trains in pitch darkness and some nut shot the tip of his finger off. He was feeling for the end of the barrel to be sure he had the gun pointed away from himself. I was just amazed when he said that, and told him that if he had his finger on the trigger and inside the guard, the gun was not pointing at him unless he turned his hand around and pointed it back. He DID NOT pass nor get a permit.

Ron

[Wayne Maybury]

767, I think that you have been very patient and as informative on this, at least as much as you can be. Thanks for the insight. I still don't like the idea of firearms being on planes, even in the hands of well trained, good guys.

It is my humble opinion that there will never be another plane hi-jacking in North America. If some guy gets up making it look like he may try to hi-jack the plane, every man on that aircraft is going to jump on him and beat the crap out of him as they will believe that they have absolutely nothing to lose by doing so.

Terrorists are going to strike another type of target such as a sports stadium full of fans, a tunnel or a subway full of commuters, a dam with a lot of houses just down stream, etc.

Wayne

[Ronbo]

Actually a disarmed public is in more danger. Countless times we see these attacks and countless times an armed public could have stopped it.

Who the hell would attempt to hijack a plane full of potentially armed passengers?

9/11 tought one valuable lesson, the government has made us sheep just waiting to be led to slaughter. It's time to take our country back from the politicians and street gangs let alone a few terrorists.

I say no more Mr. Nice Guy...

[meat]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

9/11 tought one valuable lesson, the government has made us sheep just waiting to be led to slaughter.

That's beyond untrue. Public indifference, complacency, lack of patriotism and liberal teachers attempt to make us sheep. The government has very little to do with the equation.

Originally Posted by tcrist

It's time to take our country back

If you want to 'take back' the country you need to have a fair and balanced curriculum taught by educators who don't have tenure, a union or an agenda. Remove the unions, the political perks and the liberals and you'll have your country back.

Your pal,
Meat.

[Excaliber]

Interesting video, certainly appears there needs to be some review of procedures on this matter.

[turnpike boy]

The reasonable side of me understands that, after a 3 or 4 hour flight, the FFDO could be tired and try to do what the operator in the film did....jam it down with unintended consequence. The rational side of me marvels at how anyone, after having just set the padlock in place, could conceivably do something so careless.

However.

That holster design is obscene. A padlock? - beyond stupid.

[Jamo]

That has got to be the most assinine thing I have ever seen.

[PatBuckley]

Agreed.

Typical airline BS.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by PatBuckley

Agreed.

Typical airline BS.

Pat,
It's not the airlines, they have very little to say in this. I believe the DHS would like to see a better solution as well, but their hands are being tied. Write your Congressman.
That's where the problem is.

[PatBuckley]

I should have been more general - I meant the industry as a whole.

[767Jockey]

The relationship that Congress has with the program is the core of the problem. They want to be far enough away from it that if something goes wrong they don't get tainted by the fallout, yet close enough that if a tragedy is averted by a successful application of the program they can bathe in the glory. You can't have it both ways, and the program lies in that tentative Congressional never land of existence without enthusiastic backing.

[Jamo]

I suppose you do have the option of simply throwing your unloaded gun at the bad guy because you dropped your ammo.

[767Jockey]

Jamo,
Only if you throw like a girl - it's to tight up there to even extend your arm.

[AMF]

Originally Posted by Jamo

I suppose you do have the option of simply throwing your unloaded gun at the bad guy because you dropped your ammo.

No not at all, I'm talking about a gun with the magazine in, but no round in the chamber.

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by AMF

No not at all, I'm talking about a gun with the magazine in, but no round in the chamber.

Note the cop's situation after being hit with a bat and dropped his ammo trying to chamber a round after being hit in the head with a bat.

Unloaded is unloaded.

I carry a S&W 40 cop special with a double safety and anti-shock protection in case it's dropped when I carry (certain situations). Turning the safety off is more protection than cocking a revolver...and it's a one-handed operation.

This thread had to do with a bad holster design...you don't fix that by keeping a gun unloaded.

In my opinion, of course.

[AMF]

Originally Posted by Jamo

Note the cop's situation after being hit with a bat and dropped his ammo trying to chamber a round after being hit in the head with a bat.

Unloaded is unloaded.

I carry a S&W 40 cop special with a double safety and anti-shock protection in case it's dropped when I carry (certain situations). Turning the safety off is more protection than cocking a revolver...and it's a one-handed operation.

This thread had to do with a bad holster design...you don't fix that by keeping a gun unloaded.

In my opinion, of course.

If the holster required inserting a device that potentially activated the trigger, then not having a round in the chamber would eliminate that potential hazard.

The pilot sitting in the cockpit and the cop who was attacked from behind have entirely different duties, responsibilities and threats/dangers associated with their jobs. If a maniac with a baseball bat, could actually get a baseball bat on board a plane, he'd then have to blast by flight attendants, storm the cockpit and break down the door, to begin beating one of the pilots in the head (hopefully the one who wasn't carrying).

My point is that it's not a huge decrease in responsiveness for them to have the gun holstered without a round in the chamber. He's going to have to remove the gun from the holster anyway. In MOST scenarios, the pilot is going to have sufficient time to prepare for an attack on the cockpit.

A cop's job and situation is totally different I said that. I'm not a cop. I could go my whole life and not every have to draw or use my gun (hopefully). Cops are predisposed to certainly more threat/danger not only in terms of frequency, but also in terms of variety.

The likelihood of a terrorist trying to takeover an aircraft at this point is slim to none. Couple that with the increased security and the liklihood that he would even be marginally successful if he was dumb enough to try, makes it even less likely. Couple that with a cockpit door (that's supposed to be closed/locked during flight as I understand it) and the presence (or possible presence) of armed LE agents in the air....and it makes the need for having a gun that's ready to go....very small.

At the end of all things.....I don't care if someone carries loaded and ready to go....that's their choice. But if you're not familiar enough with your weapon OR the infamous holster that's required (or you're careless in how you handle the gun while in the holster) then you probably shouldn't be allowed to carry.

Just because someone passes a driver's license test doesn't make them a good driver. Just because a pilot passes a 2 week familiarization and safety course, doesn't make them an expert gun operator. I would HOPE that the pilot is an expert aviator....it's not unreasonable to demand he have the same level of competence handling a firearm before he endangers all his passengers by discharging the darned thing.