What a SURPRISE!

[fastd]

Ex,

It is not that the other 15% don't have healthcare; they just may not have "adequate" healthcare. No one gets turned away from emergency rooms.

In addition, it is not clear that the number of uninsured is even close to the president's number of 47 million; depending on who you talk to it is closer to 15 million when you remove illegal aliens, people who can afford it but chose not to get it, etc.

Another reality is that, if/when the government lowers the quality of healthcare for everyone, more people on balance will be denied quality healthcare, and more people are likely to "die" (earlier) than before.

You blame the system for not giving health insurance to everybody now; what you are missing is that the healthcare system got so good over the last 50 years, that is saving so many more people now than it would have if a public option was instituted 50 years ago. People are surviving cancer, AIDS/HIV, luekemia, because of technical innovations and the high quality of care provided in the US. That's another reason why people come here from Canada, UK, France, etc. - they have to wait for their healthcare and when they get it, it is not as good as in the USA. You think that adding everyone to the health care pool is going to automatically increase or maintain the quality healthcare for everyone? By definition, it will not. The Government plan will definitely ration services; Obama is spending money at an unprecedented rate; Medicare/Caid is in the whole trillions of dollars; the CBO said there is very little cost savings likely to come out of this. If you take away incentives (which the Government option definitely does) for R&D to create cures for cancer, etc. you will be killing more people on balance over time. You will look back 20-30 years from now, at your kids and grandkids and have to apologize for not seeing the future clearly enough for them. Just because you felt sorry for the inadequately insured now...

The liberal argument that America is so rich that it can afford to give healthcare is bogus; we are trillions of dollars in debt. Sure it would be greater is everyone were rich, everyone had free healthcare, free rent, free food, free entertainment. The problem with the "free for everyone" arguments is that they do not work; it is not practical, we cannot afford it even if you take every last penny from every "rich" person out there. Please focus on ideas that can work.

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

Should we then prohibit ANY business from providing any health care above and beyond a set Government standard? This is a ludicrous argument.

Here is the biggest misconception about this whole damn plan. Once the government steps in with the standardized and subsidized plan, my company and most others are going to STOP offering healthcare because it COSTS THEM TOO MUCH. At present, it costs me $140/mo for my entire family of 5 to be insured with BCBS. My company also contributes $1003 on their behalf as an EMPLOYMENT benefit. They will STOP doing this once the ObamaCare takes effect because THEY WON'T HAVE TO.

Why is so hard to understand that what this administration is proposing might make healthcare available to everyone equally, but it will take those of us already enjoying existing plans and diminish our benefits drastically. I have earned the right to have a best-in-class health plan without having to pay the rockstar rate. I can assure you what the administration is proposing will NEVER match my plan benefits. All of this is yet another attempt to rob from the rich to give to the poor. Well I was once poor and I have worked my a$$ off for 25 years to get what I have, so why can't everyone else do that???

I made more money AND PAID MORE TAXES last year from my regular job than either Obama, Pelosi, Reid or Kennedy made from their salaries as public servants. Why is it again that I will be forced into the government plan and they won't?

[Excaliber]

One idea is for the US to follow Hawaii's lead, not the best, but it's a good start.

Every employer, by law, has to offer health insurance, no other option. Now the standard is not very high, some of these plans are little more than catastrophic care, big out of pocket, limited number of visits per year, etc. Most are not that way however. Most employers offer a reasonably decent health care package because the competition for the employers health care dollar is good. To get the BEST plans at the BEST rate an employer needs about 15 to 20 employees. That does leave the little guys scrambling to find decent coverage.

This is not a perfect plan because a common complaint here is, you loose your job, you loose your health care. COBRA aint all that and doesn't even apply for a company with less than 20 employees anyway.

I'm seeing some really heart breaking cases with so many people laid off here. There not going to die, right away, but some of these cases are deadly serious and there not going to get any care above "catastrophic" or emergency room, when it might be to late all ready.

I know several people who don't have to work but do for ONE reason. It provides them with insurance!

[elmariachi]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

This is not a perfect plan because a common complaint here is, you loose your job, you loose your health care.

This is a concept that has eluded the liberal politicians in this country since Roosevelt: Health insurance, home ownership and employment are not rights granted by the US Constitution. The cold, hard fact is that if you want to be insured, if you want a mortgage, if you want a job, then get off your lazy ass and go to work. I agree that we need reform amongst insurers, and by all means there needs to be a serious overhaul on numerous fronts, including SS, MediCare and a more comprehensive plan for the elderly. But the solution is NOT to socialize healthcare or dilute the free market system by having the US Government engage in this as a business venture.

[Excaliber]

...if you want a job, then get off your lazy ass and go to work.

I hear that a lot around here, frankly it is one of the more stupid and irresponsible things I hear. Have you checked the unemployment figures lately? ALL of these unemployed folks are "lazy ass" and refuse to go to work? Get real.

Were talking about middle class folks here, mainstream America, not "ghetto mothers who can't keep their legs closed". Not welfare cases. Folks who woke up one morning and discovered they had a serious medical condition. Oh sure the emergency room won't turn them down, won't let them die THERE. They'll treat them and send them home for that. WHERE and HOW they get their medicine is their "lazy ass get a job" problem. Well the Government DOES have a moral responsibility to provide for these folks, it SHOULD be gaurenteed in some manner, some way for those who will SINK because they cannot SWIM. Man, that attitude is just so cold blooded...

[Ronbo]

Your fooling yourself if you think when unemployment goes back down it will have any effect on welfare. This program is just tossing more money at them. (Johnsonomics, or "just keep throwing money at it, maybe it'll go away")

Cold-blooded? Try dealing with the IRS sometime. The people wanted blood, the governmnet gave us Madoff. The rest of the crooks walked off with the cash, all under the watchfull eye of "government regulation", so obviously the government can't regulate sh!t.

So I'm supposed to make up for the inept who financed everything in sight and didn't save a dime? Funny how I'm supposed to tighten my belt a notch while the government leeches spend like there's no tomorrow. (which is looking more likely everyday) I already do this, I own a business. The government punishes me for actually employing people, you see I'm one of those "nasty corporations" you always hear about.

The purpose of government is to safegard freedom not anyone's finacial well-being. That's your own resposibility. You are also of course, free to fail. Oh wait, maybe you can get bailed out!

Being a government employee this is of course all beyond you, your just waiting for the 15th and 30th to roll around, right?

[Jamo]

Well damn it all to hell, Oinie...you sure stirred up a hornet's nest.

[Excaliber]

I'm not now nor ever have been a Government employee or a Union employee.

Until we get a grip on this fundamental attitude,

...if you want a job, then get off your lazy ass and go to work.

there will be no resolution to health care in any form!

Again, read this carefully, I'm talking about middle class American's, unemployed, no health coverage. Good hard working folks all their lives, with familys. Never wanted a handout, not looking for one now. Some lost their job for health reasons, most lost their job due to our current economic conditions. Aloha Airlines went bankrupt and folded a few months ago. Thousands lost their 20+ year career jobs overnight and never dreamed it could possibly happen to them. Thats just ONE company, in ONE town. Shame on you guys that would call these good folk lazy ass.

Do "we" owe them anything? Yeah, I think we do. In terms of at least giving them a helping hand to help themselves. Health insurance is far to expensive for most of them to even consider. We need a plan!

Well at least the bee's aint stinging to bad, yet... As Jamo has mentioned in the past, Tort Reform would go a long way to lowering costs.

[Jamo]

That's the problem, Ernie...the train's moving too fast and it's headed for a wreck. Tort reform is just one of many elements being ignored by the Administration and Pelosi/Reid. Even Lieberman is calling for the Administration to slow down.

[VRM]

I agree with Jamo - this train is going too fast and is headed for a wreck.

Our system is not all that bad, but there are some fixes to be made. I agree with Ernie that a lot of people who are out of work right now are not lazy-ass types. I would like to figure out a way to cover their medical until they find another job. Something like unemployment benefits, but that also has a time limit. It will not be free, but it will be cheaper than what is being proposed now.
And for you employers out there who will complain about another cost, well, that person is making you money. You would not have that person there if they didn't. If every person I hired would clear $5 per year for me I would hire 50,000 tomorrow. Seriously, don't bother - I really dislike people who complain about their good fortune.

Tort reform is another one that needs to be fixed, but I think it is safe as is for at least the next 3 years or so. I also wonder if the malpractise insurers would actually lower the rates if the malpractise costs dropped.

Drug costs are also too high because drug companies have a great game going with patents and licensing. I would like to see cash awards for cures for major diseases, but then 'we the people' would own the rights. I am leery of government having that sort of control, but the drug companies have proven that they are usually not willing to play an honest game. Anybody have any better solutions to the high cost of drugs?

There are also efficiencies that we can make using high tech. My own local doctors office recently went to using small laptops to enter patient data - test results, digital x-ray images, and everything else can be stored in a patients file. And you don't have to worry about poor doctor handwriting because everything is typed. My doc says he loves it, and it has cut down on the time he spends on paperwork.

And for those GOP types - you should have seen this coming. Clinton tried to do this 15 years ago. You had Congress for over a decade, including some significant overlap time with a Republican president, and you did nothing but let the problems get worse.

And for you DNC types - WTF are you thinking!?! Bush was pretty terrible, but that does not mean that everything that existed during his administration needs to be thrown out. You need to actually troubleshoot the problems and identify what is broken and fix it. This is a knee-jerk reaction to the last 8 years, and it is not a good one.

Steve

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by VRM

I agree with Jamo - this train is going too fast and is headed for a wreck.

Our system is not all that bad, but there are some fixes to be made. I agree with Ernie that a lot of people who are out of work right now are not lazy-ass types. I would like to figure out a way to cover their medical until they find another job. Something like unemployment benefits, but that also has a time limit. It will not be free, but it will be cheaper than what is being proposed now.
And for you employers out there who will complain about another cost, well, that person is making you money. You would not have that person there if they didn't. If every person I hired would clear $5 per year for me I would hire 50,000 tomorrow. Seriously, don't bother - I really dislike people who complain about their good fortune.

Tort reform is another one that needs to be fixed, but I think it is safe as is for at least the next 3 years or so. I also wonder if the malpractise insurers would actually lower the rates if the malpractise costs dropped.

Drug costs are also too high because drug companies have a great game going with patents and licensing. I would like to see cash awards for cures for major diseases, but then 'we the people' would own the rights. I am leery of government having that sort of control, but the drug companies have proven that they are usually not willing to play an honest game. Anybody have any better solutions to the high cost of drugs?

There are also efficiencies that we can make using high tech. My own local doctors office recently went to using small laptops to enter patient data - test results, digital x-ray images, and everything else can be stored in a patients file. And you don't have to worry about poor doctor handwriting because everything is typed. My doc says he loves it, and it has cut down on the time he spends on paperwork.

And for those GOP types - you should have seen this coming. Clinton tried to do this 15 years ago. You had Congress for over a decade, including some significant overlap time with a Republican president, and you did nothing but let the problems get worse.

And for you DNC types - WTF are you thinking!?! Bush was pretty terrible, but that does not mean that everything that existed during his administration needs to be thrown out. You need to actually troubleshoot the problems and identify what is broken and fix it. This is a knee-jerk reaction to the last 8 years, and it is not a good one.

Steve

There already is it's called COBRA, which since you obviously haven't been keeping up with current events, now costs 65% less.

You employer pays 50% of your unemployment claim (as well as the "premiums")...

My employees get paid, I didn't when the profits weren't there so don't preach to me or any other employer. To hear you talk hiring an employee is a gaurenteed money maker, I assure you it is not. There are two flaws with your logic the employer has to make sure the work is there and that the employee actually does it. If things don't go well your stuck with keeping them on the payroll or laying them off. In either senario the employer is paying for them to do nothing.

Look I don't have a problem helping people out that have hit on hard times but the other half that have always been leeches need to be cooked down into bio-fuel. If the government would get off our back we could take care of this ourselves.

In good times the line is "We're doing so well, everone should help out the needy". In bad times it's "We're doing so bad, we need to help out the needy".

I am sick of the "will nots" being labeled "have nots", you find a way to weed these parasites off the government teet I'm all ears.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Ronbo

There already is it's called COBRA, which since you obviously haven't been keeping up with current events, now costs 65% less.

You employer pays 50% of your unemployment claim (as well as the "premiums")...

My employees get paid, I didn't when the profits weren't there so don't preach to me or any other employer. To hear you talk hiring an employee is a gaurenteed money maker, I assure you it is not. There are two flaws with your logic the employer has to make sure the work is there and that the employee actually does it. If things don't go well your stuck with keeping them on the payroll or laying them off. In either senario the employer is paying for them to do nothing.

Look I don't have a problem helping people out that have hit on hard times but the other half that have always been leeches need to be cooked down into bio-fuel. If the government would get off our back we could take care of this ourselves.

In good times the line is "We're doing so well, everone should help out the needy". In bad times it's "We're doing so bad, we need to help out the needy".

I am sick of the "will nots" being labeled "have nots", you find a way to weed these parasites off the government teet I'm all ears.

Ronbo,
I do not like the parasites either. I would gradually take money out of welfare and put it into job training. If you want to eat you will have to learn how to do something other than watch gameshows. I would gradually unfund welfare so that they would see their 'standard of living' reduced and eventually eliminated.

The Cobra change is a band-aid that will help some.

How would you 'take care of this yourselves' if government would get off your back?

No, hiring an employee is not a sure-fire money maker. My point was that if you can make just $5 for every employee after all your costs then you are ahead of the game. Hopefully you will do better than $5. There are also times when you will be doing very well. You opted for a higher risk/reward than your employees. That is the choice you made - don't whine about it when the going gets tough. If you don't like it, or it is no longer worth your effort, then stop doing it.
What employers pay for unemployment is part of the compensation/benefits for that employee. If that overall cost is not offset by what that employee will be generating then you should not hire them. Don't pretend you are doing employees a favour - they are there to make/save you money. You deserve to get a days work for a days pay, but it is your job to give them the work.

And I'm staying an extra hour to offset the time that I have been goofing around on CC. One of the drawbacks to actually having a work ethic I guess.

Steve

[cobra de capell]

Perhaps it's not worth getting done at all - just tweak the current system.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by cobra de capell

Perhaps it's not worth getting done at all - just tweak the current system.

Yep. We should identify specific problems and fix them rather than redesign the whole thing because there are some flaws.

Mods, no - CdC and I are not best buds now. The law of averages dictates that given enough posts that even he might get one right once in a while.

Steve

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by VRM

Yep. We should identify specific problems and fix them rather than redesign the whole thing because there are some flaws.

Mods, no - CdC and I are not best buds now. The law of averages dictates that given enough posts that even he might get one right once in a while.

Steve

...and some might say the same for you.

[VRM]

Originally Posted by Jamo

...and some might say the same for you.

True, but at least my stuff is written by me, and not copied/pasted.

[Ronbo]

Steve it's not whining, but when the government (and the media) plays people off against the employer constantly...

I'm doing my part, my employees have medical insurance. (100% funded by yours truly) I could just pay the employees to get their own insurance (for a lot less than what I pay) but I'm sure you can guess how many of them would actually get it. (maybe half) If this $1000/yr penalty (per employee) for providing private ins. instead of the "public option" makes it to law, guess this will show you where the government's head is. My insurance agent would tell you how rare 100% funded insurance is nowadays.

I'm not going to win any medals for doing this, I just don't like the idea of my people not having insurance. But your right it's my choice.

What pisses me off is this "system" of hiding all this expense by dumping it on the businesses. Since businesses can't vote they shouldn't be taxed, period. When people get their paycheck and see 50% gone maybe it'll sink in. A business's only option is to fund lobbying to keep the politicians from raping them even more than they do now. I'm sure you can recall how lobbiests are reflected in the press.

I'd love it even better if the IRS and state came down to the store to collect it personally every payday.

[RAZOR]

Originally Posted by VRM

True, but at least my stuff is written by me, and not copied/pasted.

True but thats because you have no computer skills

[Excaliber]

That might indeed be the solution.

Note:
I'm not blaming the Government or anyone else for our current or future health care issues. Finger pointing does little to improve a process. I'm just looking for answers for a serious problem.

[Excaliber]

I'm glad to see your providing insurance for your employees. If your business was in Hawaii you wouldn't have a choice, it's the law. You wouldn't have an option to pay a penalty or a tax to get out of it, period. That law is working well in Hawaii and I think it would work well on a Federal level.