Speaking of Illegals........

[Jamo]

Ernie...as purespeed just explained, the borders are controlled by the federal government. The several states can enforce their criminal laws and decide who is entitled to state-funded benefits...that's it.

[Excaliber]

I know the Feds control it, as they should. I'm just saying the States should be granted more power with less ovesight. I think at a local level they are better equiped to deal with how to get it done. Like when Arizona, or which ever State, starts an aggressive campaign to root out the illegals, by checking documentation, they are faced with Federal violations of one kind or another.

Of course it's a nill point if the State does nothing...

[joeg2]

When liberal GROUPS, yes funded groups by George Soros hire bus'es to bring the SEIU members to protest its considered a protest, if good old americans who ARE FED up with our government allowing illegal aleins to get healthcare etc , there tea baggers. And i would ask anyone to prove the tea party's are sponsered by any group!! Here in ct when they went after the AIG big wigs and buse's showed up with SEIU union thugs it was discovered the bus's where hired by ACORN.
I went to the tea party here in ct. No one paid me
joeg

[Jamo]

Originally Posted by joeg2

When liberal GROUPS, yes funded groups by George Soros hire bus'es to bring the SEIU members to protest its considered a protest, if good old americans who ARE FED up with our government allowing illegal aleins to get healthcare etc , there tea baggers. And i would ask anyone to prove the tea party's are sponsered by any group!! Here in ct when they went after the AIG big wigs and buse's showed up with SEIU union thugs it was discovered the bus's where hired by ACORN.
I went to the tea party here in ct. No one paid me
joeg

Lack of required capitalization, improper grammer and punctuation, etc.

I'm going to suggest you type your posts in Word first, and use the spelling and grammer tools...then cut/paste to post.

Take a day to practice. We deserve better here.

[purespeed]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I know the Feds control it, as they should. I'm just saying the States should be granted more power with less ovesight. I think at a local level they are better equiped to deal with how to get it done. Like when Arizona, or which ever State, starts an aggressive campaign to root out the illegals, by checking documentation, they are faced with Federal violations of one kind or another.

Of course it's a nill point if the State does nothing...

I hear you. We can wish all we want, but...

The feds will never agree to turn over the borders to the states and they will never give up any federal powers.

This is where leadership is so, so important. We don't have it...we haven't it since I don't know when. I can see what is happening and what I believe will happen.

I'm not a political leader, I'm just a citizen. I see our unemployment of Americans rising, our employment of illegals rising, and our government employment burden growing. This is not right.

Again, the states can make all the noise they want, but the feds HAVE NOT and WILL NOT enforce the immigration laws of the land and they WILL NOT allow the states to do so.

People illegally here generate several problems. There's NOT a good answer to this and when there are no good clear cut answers, people think of poor solutions.

Amnesty, while it may seem to be an answer, actually creates more problems...example: amnesty for 1.2 million is helping to create amnesty for 12 million....is there a reason to pretend to secure our borders at this point? Suddenly declaring an alien to be a citizen DOES NOT cause taxes to be generated.

We are destined to have the South American leftist style of government.

[Jamo]

Ahem...we already do.

[Excaliber]

I wouldn't rule out amnesty with proper safeguards in place and a high threshold level to qualify. That hopefully will counter the "bum rush", ALONG with a more secure border.

What to do with the 12-20 million illegals all ready here? It's a head scratcher...

IF in fact Texas watches the bus loads of illegals come and go over the border for "school", why is that? Are the numbers so big they can't get a handle on it? Something to do with money? Federal laws interfering with legal action? What's going on there? Not only Texas, is the same kind of thing happening in other states?

[Roscoe]

We've tried that before under Reagan. Didn't work. No follow up on the LAW. Just more illegals coming in.

Roscoe

[purespeed]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I wouldn't rule out amnesty with proper safeguards in place and a high threshold level to qualify. That hopefully will counter the "bum rush", ALONG with a more secure border.

What to do with the 12-20 million illegals all ready here? It's a head scratcher...

IF in fact Texas watches the bus loads of illegals come and go over the border for "school", why is that? Are the numbers so big they can't get a handle on it? Something to do with money? Federal laws interfering with legal action? What's going on there? Not only Texas, is the same kind of thing happening in other states?

Again I hear you.

Amnesty does what? I know it generates more population on the books and causes more politicians to be on the DC payroll as US Representatives. That's more overhead for the taxpayer to support. And of course that would be a heavier leftist voter turnout which would generate more social tax programs and so on and so on.

Interesting question about border cities and the bus loads of school children. I am assuming you used the word "IF" because you doubt if this is true.

I typed in "illegal school children going to Texas schools" and got 508,000 hits.

Here's the link:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

You can tell the school districts are trying to obey the law, but so much is dependent upon trust. The school districts are not police and don't have resources to check every child.

Hispanic children represented a majority of kindergarten, 1st grade and 2nd grade classes last year and made up nearly 49 percent of the state's total K-8 enrollment.

http://blogs.chron.com/texaspolitics...8/post_78.html

As you can tell the schools K-8 are 49% hispanic in Texas but along the border the number is very high. They can't keep them out as long as the feds let them cross the border.

If an illegal alien moves into Texas, the courts say Texas is forced to educate his kids without any tutition or reinbursement from the parents regardless of their legal status.

As far as your saying "proper safeguards in place"....just stop right there...you're preaching to the choir. I hear you...I agree with you........but it won't happen!.....I'll say it again, it won't happen!

Lastly: "is the same kind of thing happening in other states?" I don't know about other states.

[Excaliber]

I said IF in deference to those that might not agree, but you make a strong case for that reality.

...but so much is dependent upon trust.

I think that was Jamo's point, we cannot entirely legislate our way out of this mess. At the local level the teachers are the most likely to be aware of whats going on, who's legal, who's not. What a tough position to put them in, "ratting out" their students, but we gotta start some where.

[*13*]

Where does this 12 million number come from? California can't even tell us reasonably "about" how many illegals we have.

[Excaliber]

It seems to vary from 12 to 20 generally speaking, got me how they count them. Thats a pretty big spread on the numbers.

[*13*]

I don't think they have a clue. I've met quite a few fair skinned people in Los Angeles who are not here any more legally that anyone else who is Sick Bird(illegal). Of course they blend in so no one cares, socially speaking. There are so many sides to the issue here that it's politically taboo to even touch it if you're planning on running for office. Strength numbers, I suppose

[purespeed]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I think that was Jamo's point, we cannot entirely legislate our way out of this mess. At the local level the teachers are the most likely to be aware of whats going on, who's legal, who's not. What a tough position to put them in, "ratting out" their students, but we gotta start some where.

My wife is a retired teacher and I promise you that teachers absolutely do NOT become involved with citizenship issues. The teachers are required to report anyone that is in the wrong district - but not the wrong citizenship. I suspect that this not limited to Texas border cities. I'm assuming this applies to all school districts in all 50 states.

Like I said, the courts have already ruled that anyone living in a school district (regardless of citizenship) must be educated by that district.

The crazy court case was Plyler vs. Doe.

In the case of Plyler vs. Doe concerning the education of illegal aliens in Texas, the Courts ruled against the state of Texas.

Filing briefs for the illegal alien appellees were the American Immigration Lawyers Association, the American Jewish Committee, the Asian American Legal Defense and Education Fund, the Mexican American Bar Association of Houston, the American Friends Service Committee and the National Education Association.

Incredibly, given the burden Plyler would come to impose on Californians, the California State Board of Education also filed a brief supporting the illegal aliens.

We saw the above liberal groups piling on to force Texas tax payers to pay for illegal aliens' education. Of course this applies to the entire nation now.

Liberal groups continue eat away at America, liberal court judges continue to eat away at America, and now Obama has the chance to finish us off.

He WILL grant amnesty and that will finally do it. We will be in the leftist style government forever. People talk about taking back the congress in 2010, but that's too late. The amnesty will prove to illegal aliens that they were correct to break the law by entering illegally and that sends the message to rest of Mexico and S.A.

If I knew the right answer, I would jump up and down on the keyboard to get the message out. But Obama has won the election and he will "CHANGE" this country forever and there's nothing we can do about it.

We can keep beating on this dead horse, but sometimes we don't win.

[Scott S]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

What to do with the 12-20 million illegals all ready here? It's a head scratcher...

Require each family to build a new home preferably with lumber from Oregon. This country could use half a dozen new houses...

Oregon produces more Christmas trees than any other State and it tree trimming time now. There are thousands of the little brown guys swinging machetes to make your tress all nice and uniform. If we tried to run them out of the country they most likely would use them big knives on us.

Scott S

[Excaliber]

Thats interesting Scott. There are some occupations certain groups of people just seem to have a lock on. Here in Hawaii it's lawn care, Fillipino's. Anything from a guys house to Government properties to highway maintenance. Small armies of them, prices are super low and typically they work in groups of three or four. SWARM in, cut, trim, rake, water, plant and then there gone. They are SO quick and SO reasonable priced no way anyone can compete. Do a darn good job of it too...

[*13*]

There was a farmer here in SoCal who was known for hiring illegals then calling immigration at the end of the week. I bet his profit margin was healthy Seems that sooner or Later Karma would catch up with you, though. I hear the "Who would do those jobs?" argument quite a bit. I'm not so sure it's sound.

[Dan40]

Originally Posted by *13*

There was a farmer here in SoCal who was known for hiring illegals then calling immigration at the end of the week. I bet his profit margin was healthy Seems that sooner or Later Karma would catch up with you, though. I hear the "Who would do those jobs?" argument quite a bit. I'm not so sure it's sound.

The politicians that say Americans WON"T do those jobs are lying. They make that claim like the illegals are a GOOD and necessary thing.

Close our borders to illegals and ship the ones here back.
1. Americans WILL do those jobs.
or
2. Americans will do those jobs for more money. [a wash, since we wouldn't have the burden of the non tax paying illegals]
or
3. Machinery would be developed to do the work for less.

[Jamo]

Folks don't want to hear this, choosing instead to rely on attention seeking politicians and talking heads, but the facts are far different than what is commonly believed.

Few of you deal directly with illegal workforces...the following is based on California agriculture...every segment and area.

In the old days, illegals generally worked off the clock and got paid in cash, etc. How would I know? That's how we paid them on our farm, until the green cars would park next to the field or vineyard and folks would start running. There were no employer sanctions back then (60s). While working off the clock still occurs, it is a small percentage due to IRCA/I-9 requirements for employers, and is usualy done by urbanites picking up day laborers on street corners (which is why they presume farmers and contractors do the same thing...they don't). Thus, most illegals use fraudulent documents and are paid via the payroll system. As such, they have income taxes and mandated benefit premiums deducted like everyone else.

Because their work is seasonal in agriculture, their deductions far exceed what their taxes would actually be. However, because they are illegal, few file income tax returns, so most of the money stays with the government. This is never calculated in comparison to the costs of illegals because it is impossible to presume who is legal and who isn't. So when you cite numbers as to what illegals cost, you are relying on half-assed information. Not your fault...the government can't track illegal income through taxes and unrefunded amounts.

The larger agricultural operations provide health benefits; the smaller ones do not...in about the same percentages as any other industry according to chamber of commerce surveys.

Minimum pay is $8 per hour in California...most agricultural employees who work in fruits and vegetables earn $9.50 or more for cultural work, and upwards of $12-16 per hour for piece-rate work such as pruning or harvesting.

Agricultural groups here in the San Joaquin Valley offered round trip transportation and living accomodations for Katrina victims to come and work during the summers following the devastation...27 folks took up the offer.

Will U.S citizens work in the fields...even for more money? You all make bold statements that they will, but offer no proof. The fact is, even unionized ag companies, with even higher rates, the best medical plans and retirement benefits, have had labor shortages for the past 15 years that the labor organizations have kept track of it. When employers secure guest workers, which includes round trip transportation, living accomodations and healthcare, they have to offer exactly the same to citizens for several months before the seasons start. It is rare to have any citizens take the offers.

Why? The work is damn hard and it is seasonal. How would I know? I grew up in it. Now, most urbanites who have no clue how their food ends up at their local markets, usually stick their feet in their mouths about now, suggesting ignorant concepts and ideas without having even a minimum amount of information from which to make such assinie suggestions...those posts will follow this.

Of all the folks that frequent the Lounge, I know of only one person who would understand what I'm saying, and that's Scott...merely because his industry is affected in much the same way as agriculture. There may be a few of you who post less frequently about the subject who also have experience. Posting one new newspaper account of one incident is not "experience."

I am not pro-illegal (not by a longshot), but I really can't stand stupid-assed remarks based on wrong information. I would prefer we have secure borders and that we not offer blanket amnesty. As others have said, it did not work in the 80s, and most folks who secured citizenship through that plan had been brought here (by us) through the bracero program in the 50s and had lived here for decades...they are generally not in favor of any new amnesty plan either for folks who have been here for only a few years.

I do think we need fast-track processing of applications for the illegals that are here...for you morons, read that again: I said processing. I do not believe we should drop the standards one bit. However, we need to set a two or three year period for folks to apply and get the determinations made within that timespan instead of the 4-5 year current wait. If they qualify, great; if not...goodbye.

We also need more efficient guest worker procedures...along with TVA-style unemployment department enforced work for benefits. If someone wants unemployment and there is a job available...they have to take the job and receive only the difference in benefits between what they were paid in a job they lost versus what the job pays. Otherwise, no benefits.

We need to change the law (at the federal level) allowing children who are born here to illegals to automatically be citizens. We cannot make make this ex post facto as it would violate the Constitution...but going forward, it would be Constitutional.

We need to increase enforcement at the employer level and at the neighborhood level...Obama recently pulled back on the latter. Did anybody here know that, by the way? Any of you ever deal with an ICE audit...or do you just read about them? Do any of you know what the current status quo is concerning Social Security Mis-Matches? Do you know whether an employer can fire an employe because their Social Security number does not match their name? Do you know whether an employer can fire someone because several other employees swear he or she is illegal...or whether you can even contact DHS to verify? Do you know what e-verify is?

Nevermind...lost cause.

[Excaliber]

Well written Jamo, thanks for that.

What I found most shocking was

...27 folks took up the offer.

. That's it? 27? Dam! No welfare for the rest, the Soup Nazi has spoken!

More local control, thats what I been saying! But whats with this?

...employer level and at the neighborhood level...Obama recently pulled back on the latter.

WHAT? Thats exactly what we need, more power to the states, cities, local government. Why would he do that?

While a smattering of illegals work the fields here it's almost impossible for them to get into the construction scene. Hawaii does in fact do "sweeps" at the major construction sights, which are often funded by State or Federal monies.