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Old 03-17-2014, 06:39 PM
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Default Ethanol in our fuel, have your say!

Alright seasonal vehicle owners, we all know how bad the corn is in our fuel. Take a minute to voice your objections to them raising the % even higher than the troublesome level it's already at. We need NH voices to be heard and we need help from neighbouring states. If you need a letter to copy and paste I'll draft one up. Thanks for your help and support with this.
New Hampshire Bill to Prohibit Ethanol Blended Gasoline at Levels Greater Than 10% Amended and Approved by Committee; Moves to Full House
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Old 03-17-2014, 07:13 PM
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Ethanol has been in fuel as an "oxygenator" in our area in Colorado for years. Ours is 10% (E10). Supposedly it helps with the "brown cloud". It used to be seasonal - winter time - now it's year round. Now they are pushing E15 as an option, but no service station is going to serve up both and the stations will go the E15 because the proportionate volume of alcohol over petroleum is in the alcohol favor and they charge more - more profit Yechhhh.

P.S. Wasting corn alcohol on a gasoline additive is a sin. That's what mash whiskey is made from :
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Old 03-25-2014, 06:23 PM
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Indeed oxygenated fuels produce less pollution but they also produce less power so there is no worthwhile gain.
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Old 03-25-2014, 06:41 PM
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My letter is below. Join SAN, help keep our hobby alive!
I urge you to consider the importance of supporting H.B. 1220.
The damage being caused by ethanol blended fuels is becoming a problem of epidemic proportions.
It is particularly problematic when used in seasonal vehicles fuel systems.
It invalidates warranties from many large manufacturers if used at levels higher than 10%.
Oxygenated fuels like ethanol blends create less pollution but produce less power so the use of it is not an efficient or worthwhile solution. The cost of producing ethanol for fuels is having a detrimental effect on costs of producing food.
Thank you for your consideration of these points when voting on H.B. 1220, please support this bill.
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Old 03-25-2014, 09:10 PM
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Actually, ethanol is about 115 Octane and your engine will produce MORE HP with higher levels of ethanol. Check a new vehicle specs set up for E85 and they show more HP produced when burning E85 vs E10. The other point is engine technology with computer control has advanced to the point where ethanol is not necessary to meet emission requirements. The reasons we have E10 is because some people believe we are making a renewable fuel out of corn ethanol (that is not true) and because the first presidential primary election is in Iowa where they grow a lot of corn. In Europe fuel ethanol is made out of wheat. I wonder if someone is going to Hell because we fuel our SUVs with food when others are starving.....
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Old 03-26-2014, 08:34 AM
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Very interesting and pertinent topic! Sure don't want my babies dying of ethanol
poisoning. The past couple days research has yielded some info that seems
contradictory to me...maybe not to others. Number one...carbs being hurt by ethanol,
and that an alum carb would be an answer. However, alc also causes oxidation of alum. Well, not the alc but the water it attracts. Glad I live in the "dry heat". Second...E10 and 85 have octane around 110-115, but produce approx 30% less power and mileage. So what gives? Is it like the higher proof you drink the less you feel like working?
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Old 03-26-2014, 09:05 AM
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Alcohol will produce more horsepower if you have the right components. Ethanol or methanol is a higher octane. Hence forth you need more timing, higher compression and more fuel.

If I remember correctly the ratio is about 40% higher or more for methanol. About another 6 to 8 degrees of timing and 2 points or more compression needed. I would assume ethanol is about the same.
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Old 03-26-2014, 09:52 PM
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When I said ethanol has 115 octane, I meant a blend of 95% ethanol and 5% denaturant has about an 115 octane. E85 is defined as fuel with between 50% and 85% ethanol! The ethanol will give you the HP, but the energy content is lower so you get less gas mileage. 1/3 less gas mileage is typical with E85, but you still get more HP. You should not run E85 unless you have a flex-fuel vehicle. E85 requires steel fuel lines and special components to operate safely.
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:41 AM
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A vehicle running closed loop engine management will use more fuel the higher the ethanol content goes.

O2 sensor activity and the target A/F ratio sends fuel trims positive to make up the difference.

Fuel consumption order worse to best E85, E10, 91, 95, 98 PULP, as tested for a local TV report.

Carbs require recalibration for anything over 10% ethanol.

Stoich ratios for fuels: petrol 14.7:1, ethanol 9.5:1, methanol 6.5:1 approx.

Obviously best power ratios are richer.
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Old 03-27-2014, 03:26 AM
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That's true Gaz, except your octane numbers are expressed in a way that it relates here in Australia. The different research/motor octane scales means US 93 octane is our 98 octane fuel.
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:20 AM
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What follows are opinions, not fully researched facts. ... I believe ethanol has no effect on the miles per dollar I get with my vehicles. I also believe the conversion of corn from food to fuel raises the price of many food items. I would rather the corn go to lower priced food than to fuel with lower energy content per gallon than gasoline. ... And I live in a rural area with no significant air pollution problems. If you guys in places like Denver want to use it to address a local problem, be my guest. But I see no reason to mandate it nationwide.

P.S. I'd love to know how much energy it takes to plant, grow, harvest, prepare and deliver one gallon of ethanol to my town. I'd also like to know how much energy it takes to drill, extract, prepare and deliver one gallon of gasoline. I suspect there is a difference.
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Old 03-27-2014, 04:44 AM
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Good discussion on the for and against ethanol. It was approved at State level to not increase %. Now we're off to campaign senators on it. Wish us luck.
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Old 03-27-2014, 08:23 AM
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I'm perplexed........How long and at what cost to the "planet"........the only home that we and our decendants will ever have..........Ethanol is renewable........Fracking is the biggest rape being perpetrated on our planet right now........it is destroying ground water everywhere that they drill........... Oil I believe will come back to haunt us from the pockets left underground from the oil extraction...........we are all so selfish that we can't see the damage being done to the earth .......Do you know that the oil companies around the world operate without any legal or government restrictions , with their only motive being money.....?
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Old 03-27-2014, 12:40 PM
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Channmadd,
I suppose I feel as strong an obligation to provide more affordable food for people here on Earth today as you do help out people you will never know. ... No one can accurately predict what future technologies and situations might affect unborn generations. Thus, the best we can do is make life as comfortable and bearable as we can during the time we are here. ... One of the great pearls of wisdom is that "today's problem is yesterday's solution." It's as true now as it was 100 years ago and will be 100 years from now.
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Old 03-27-2014, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy View Post
Channmadd,
I suppose I feel as strong an obligation to provide more affordable food for people here on Earth today as you do help out people you will never know. ... No one can accurately predict what future technologies and situations might affect unborn generations. Thus, the best we can do is make life as comfortable and bearable as we can during the time we are here. ... One of the great pearls of wisdom is that "today's problem is yesterday's solution." It's as true now as it was 100 years ago and will be 100 years from now.
Right now it seems as all of it falls into one category " This is the best bad idea we have "
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Old 04-02-2014, 11:21 AM
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So here's what we know -
Ethanol (ethyl alcohol) can be added to gasoline with no negative effects.
Ethanol has a higher octane value than gasoline, but that advantage can only be realized by increasing compression (a'la Indycar) or possibly timing (the hard way).
While ethanol has a higher octane rating than does gasoline it burns at a lower temperature. This results in less power being generated unless compression is increased.
There is no net gain achieved by adding ethanol to gasoline since there is an energy outlay in producing the ethanol. Farmers in Kansas and Iowa would disagree.

This whole debate reminds me of the gas/diesel debate. While we know diesel engines typically get 10% to 20% better mileage, we have to keep in mind the diesel fuel (at least in Connecticut) costs 20% more. So why put up with all the problems associated with diesel engines?

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Old 04-02-2014, 11:33 AM
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My engine is a hybrid...........

Burns gas and rubber.......

Tree hugger or not perception is far from reality and the laws of physics say the total energy of a system remains constant, though energy may transform into another form. Global warming is part of the earths cycle and E10, E85 etc will not change that.

This can be food, less CO2 emission wise (Leafpeepers) or an assortment of other goodies. Big negative -OH eats up rubber seals.......

I say use natural gas reserves as a resource and keep corn on the table.

Reminds me of the electric car debate:
In NH 85%+ of generated electric is from Natural gas or oil reserves....
Electric cars add a middleman to grab a few % points.......
Battery disposal is not green nor sustainable........
Setting aside a few models for the most part hideous to look at.....
Also, they burn fuel at temps under 32F to keep battery from freezing.... Hmmmm
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Old 04-07-2014, 06:14 AM
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I stopped buying ethanol gas, and my carb is happy,happy...
Only race fuel now.
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Old 04-07-2014, 07:57 AM
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I have to live with this crap on a daily basis. The only thing I have found that stabilizes the fuel in the car over the winter is SeaFoam Motor Treatment. Both Gino and I put a pint in the tank in the fall, and the car fires flawlessly in the spring.
However, my customers fuel injection problems, lack of horsepower, etc, is the fault of the government. We are putting FOOD in our gas tank, at a rate far more expensive and damaging to the economy and environment that if we stayed with "normal" gasoline. Look what the federal government has done to the diesel pickups. None of them run the way they were designed because of the cetane rating. They were designed to be run on 50 cetane, like the feds told the manufacturers, then hurricane Katrina came and the oil companies told the feds they could only produce 35 to 38 cetane. That is what we are dealing with today.
I have 2 Cub Cadet tractors, a 68 and a 69. Both have to have the fuel tank removed and white particles flushed out every year. The particles look like shredded styrofoam. But, what has the federal government done for us that makes sense----TPMS? And, at what cost?
We are now talking about DELIBERATELY manufacturing fuel that is damaging to your car, AND voiding the warranty at the same time?

Tom
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Old 04-07-2014, 09:17 AM
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South Africa has mixed ethanol into coal derived gas since the 70s.........The results of fracking are in the news right now....Oklahoma is having fracking quakes daily..........Tommy .....where are you going to drive your Cobra when the air is like China,s........I am not an avid tree hugger .....but I have offspring ......very selfish attitude to not think about what you're leaving behind...........there is still no inhabitable planet near..........I also managed to set some pretty good lap times on pump ..ethanol gas......I also have to say again ...oil is not renewable and when they take it out the ground it leaves huge empty holes.......that likely will collapse in the future........and ..no.....water will not fill the hole.......
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