Superformance Brakes (or not)

[Got the Bug]

#2613 w/ Roush 402SR TW. No brake problems at all.

ekrupa2's West Coast doppelganger.

[wanab5150]

This is the gist of the initial letter... I have obtainted many ,many updates throughout the week and am happy with the responses so far..... I am extreely happy how much effort Superformance and their associates have put into fixing this problem....I will continue to update .............. tom
March 26, 2008
Dynamic Auto West
9728 S. Virginia St. Suite A
Reno, Nevada 89511

Dear Dennis Peck:
I purchased a Superformance Mk 3 in mid October from John Miller at Dynamic Motorsports, Reno. During the waiting process I made frequent visits to talk with John and Steven in the shop next door, (Reno Engine and Drivetrain) where the installation was completed.
During this process I checked with Steven and John regarding any updates that may be made to the newest batch of cars. In approximately December, Steve showed me a new rear “Wilwood” caliper incorporating the emergency brake. Although not looking anything like the front caliper, this was apparently the new “hot setup” for the rear caliper. The unit looked like something from a Chrysler of yesteryear. It was large and had fins running the length of it, but I was advised it worked perfectly.
When my car was delivered, it had an even newer version of the finned caliper that was used for only a few months. This version looked exactly like the front caliper. Same color and shape with “Willwood” engraved on it, and it had the integrated emergency brake. I was told this was the latest version, even newer than the last.
I took possession of the car in early March, and for the most part am very satisfied. There are 3 issues still to be resolved. One, the windshield wipers don’t work because the wires are hanging behind the dash…apparently never hooked up. Two, the speedometer bounces more than 10 MPH at speeds under 50 MPH and bounces more than 20 MPH above 50 MPH. A new cable will remedy this situation. Three, the vehicle has dangerously insufficient brakes. The Speedo and wiper issue were acknowledged by Steven (the installer) and will be repaired as soon as I have time to drive up to Reno. I should state, Steven has bent over backward to accommodate me with any questions or concerns with the car. He will probably be the only person I will let work on the car while I have it, and even if I have to transport the car to Reno.
After I had 450 miles on the car we had a meeting with the Northern States Cobra Club and drove a short 30 miles to breakfast. As we arrived at the location the lead car apparently slowed rather fast causing a chain reaction stop with the other cars. No one came close to a collision, but we all had to brake harder than normal. It was at that time I realized the car did not want to stop and I had to veer to the left of the car in front of me. Again, the car would not stop and that’s with all my 240lbs. behind the pedal.
After the meeting I did a few tests to confirm this was a failure and not a simple adjustment. I did full on stops from 30 mph, 50 mph, and 70 mph with the same results. The brakes will absolutely not lock up (skid) and although the pedal is hard the brakes have a fading feeling. They do not completely go away, but seem to fade to a certain point then will eventually stop the vehicle.
In talking to Steven, he stated he has driven another new (no miles) vehicle and felt a similar sensation. He said he will test the vehicle further and contact me with the results and possibly a solution. He stated he contacted Dynamic Motorsports at their Headquarters and was told they have had no issues with the new caliper or any other braking issues. Steven said he is contacting “Wilwood” attempting to ascertain if they could provide information on the calipers on these cars. He said he would provide the parts numbers to them and see if the front and rear calipers match with the master cylinder and other brake components of the car. Steven did indicate this new caliper is a single puck, down from four, and may have a mis-match with the old front caliper or master calendar. He is guessing at this point.
Let me assure you at Dynamic Motorsports, this is a REAL and dangerous issue. I am writing as I do not feel this is an outside shops (Reno Engine and Drivetrain) responsibility and is the direct Responsibility of Dynamic Motorsports. I will cooperate any way possible to rectify this issue. I do not believe Dynamic Motorsports would intentionally sell a vehicle with this problem.
I should mention that I am a retired Salinas Police Officer of 23 years and conducted hundreds if not thousands of accident investigations during my career. Any fatal or serious injury accident required braking tests on the suspect vehicles. This included technical inspections as well as lock-up skid tests on clean, good grade asphalt with a 70% co-efficient of friction or better. Vehicle weight as well as tire size and tread depth were considered. Although standard braking specifications may not apply to this vehicle, it is sufficiently defective to be considered unsafe and would fail a CHP or PD inspection if tested. Please understand, the above information is only to confirm I am qualified as an expert in safety and am basing my findings on fact, not assumptions.
I will be continuing to attempt to find the source of this issue with the braking system. Please respond as soon as possible.
Tom xxxxxxxxx (xxx)xxx-xxxx / WANAB5150@COMCAST.NET
cc: Dynamicmotorsports@sbcglobal.net
Lance @superformance.com
John Miller Reno Dealership
Steven (Reno Engine and Drivetrain)

[madmaxx]

wanab150,

Thanks for the details and keep the comming!! When did you actually take delivery and how long has SPF been addressing the issue? I look forward to your next update. Did the brakes appear acceptable in the first 450 miles? and gradual degrade or was this the first time you had to hit the brakes hard?

Usually the speedometer will settle down but if it is still acting up at 450 miles than it may need both a new cable and make sure it is routed correctly from the transmission to odometer with no hard bends. I doubt it will ever be steady like a new car.

[CSCHWER]

I'm not sure if the speedometer cable is supplied by SPF or the dealer. Mine was about half a football field too long. Try a NAPA 615-1644 cable. I also replaced the gear on the end of the cable with a 19 tooth one. The gear the dealer supplied made the speedo jump. Believe me on the NAPA cable, I tried 3 before I got one that would not pump oil up the cable.
Chet

[wanab5150]

I didnt test the brakes at all until the "normal stop" inroute to the breakfast with you guys. Stephen has a new cable waiting for me in Reno..As of Tuesday night ....no further E-mails from Superformance! tom

[SPF2245]

I've got 2245 and I've had issues with the brakes, but it was vacuum related (ie low idle RPMs coming to a stop was very difficult to get enough brake pressure). Cheap and easy remedy was bumping the idle RPMs up 150...now I've got enough vacuum to stop yet not too much to cause run-on when I turn it off.

[Woodz428]

The owner of #2694 did an evaluation of his brakes after some of these comments. He says his work superbly and are better than most cars he has driven/drives. The only time he had concerns was when the engine died on hard braking(clutch in) and he lost...his vacuum boost. So this is not apparently a problem with all, or most likely many, cars. I still lean toward a vacuum problem that everyone seems to want to negate.

[wanab5150]

Woods428...Check and let me know if your rear caliper has fins on it (you can see them through the R wheel. OR if you have an e-brake on your drive shaft and NOT on the rear caliper.....tom.

[thudmaster]

Tom, you are welcome to come to my house and look my spf over. It is number 2742.......If you would like to send me a PM and I will give you directions and a phone number...........

[Woodz428]

Originally Posted by wanab5150

Woods428...Check and let me know if your rear caliper has fins on it (you can see them through the R wheel. OR if you have an e-brake on your drive shaft and NOT on the rear caliper.....tom.

That was another owners car, I'll have to check with him, but I am sure his has the new style e-brake. It makes little sense to me that IF the rear brakes were problematic that the front ones wouldn't lock up on hard braking...the physics of brakes. Since there is no apparent lock up at any time, I suspect a low vacuum signal. I have yet to see any brake system where one side is non functioning( frozen even) that wouldn't create a lock up on the other side(or end).

[VintageUpgrades]

Half of the cars that leave our shop have belt driven vacuum pumps installed on them (SPF or otherwise). As far as Roush engines go, we use mostly the SR versions with the TW cam. They produce more vacuum than the R versions. I have not had a problem with the rear calipers in any of their incarnations. The driveshaft e-brake is the only thing that gives us troubles; mostly from customers leaving them on. We are working on a few e-brake improvements. One uses two calipers on the rear rotors, the other uses the Explorer style drum in the rotor. After more R&D I will post some pics.

[madmaxx]

Vintage,

Are you guys changing the rear brakes from what was delivered from the factory? In other words on your newer cars where the ebrake is incorporated into the caliper are you replacing those with a drum or driveshaft type ebrake and different style caliper? I

[VintageUpgrades]

On the cars with the single piston rear, we have not had to do anything. The next car we build has 427R. We will see how it stops with no "fixes", then go from there.

[madmaxx]

Vintage,

You guys have any GT40's in stock?

[VintageUpgrades]

All we have at this time are 2 MKIII rollers. We only order the GT and Daytona when a customer wants one. So far this year , only one Daytona.

[jhwalker]

The owner of SPF2694 does not visit Club Cobra, but is a Superformance Cobra Owners Forum member. He was OK with his note being posted here in its entirety.
Since I also have a Roush 427R in my SPF (2117) to which I added a vacuum device after not liking the low rpm braking, this is a thread of interest to me.

I usually read and learn on my Club Cobra visits, so it is nice to post.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(the note)
Subject: SPF Brakes Newer Cars

I would like to comment on the brake issue with the newer SPF Roadster. I happen to have a car with just over 1000 miles and about 60-days old, #2694. This is my second SPF Roadster, the first was #855, which I owned, from new, for about six years, it was equipped with Wilwood brakes. After reading the threads about the brakes, I decided I would not take a family member or friend a ride in the car until I did some testing of the brakes. While I do not consider myself to be a professional driver, I have owned and drove race cars, for fifty years, so now you know I am north of 60 in the age department. Not to toot a whistle, but I know what it is to aggressively brake a car from 200 mph to a full stop, several thousand times, of course that was with the aid of a parachute. Have done a little road course, but experience there is limited to a couple days at Summit Point in WV, and a couple days at Sebring, FL, and several weekends at the Gainesville, FL track.

What I did today was to take my car to a private airport and play with the brakes a lot, here are my findings. I would like to say that the brakes perform well in excess of most factory automobiles I have driven over the years. I did hard breaking from 100 mph to zero, at least four times in a short period of time. The brakes generated the normal smell of brakes used to the max, but I did not experience noticeable fade. The method was to come down on the brakes hard but controllable, and when below 50 continue to press harder until I could hear the tires start to complain, but not lock them up. I found that the front to rear balance was good, both front and back tires sounded like they were complaining verbally about the same without either end breaking loose completely. I did the first brake test by dis-engaging the clutch, and of course since I have two four barrels the first response was they spilled over and the engine died, so I guess you know what happens to the vacuum assist when that happens. I did still have good breaking until the vacuum was gone then the brake of course got hard just like it would without the engine running, which was expected, and would be the same with any car. The remaining three times I did this test it was with the clutch engaged until I got down to almost a stop to use the deceleration of the car to generate vacuum, the brakes felt fine. I would like to say that my car does generate vacuum at the lower end of the scale of need, at about 11 pounds, The car has an aggressive roller camshaft, and idles at about 1000 rpm's, and peaks at 7000 rpm's,

I do have an event scheduled to run at Sebring in mid May, so will have more to say after that event. I am however now convinced that the brakes perform at a level that I fear not to take my grand boys a ride with confidence, and maybe even take a couple of neighbors a Cobra ride, if they are dressed appropriately for the summer season, if you know what I mean.
Ken #2694
--------------------------------------------------------------------
James

[wanab5150]

If you have read all the posts regarding the brake issue, you would realize we DO NOT have the same calipers on the rear of our cars thus your car may stop, as it has 4 pot calipers (or PBR calipers) and my car has the new single pot 34mm Wilwood calipers. Dennis Olthoff himself tested these calipers and using a fixed force against the brake pedal with the engine off, (no vacuum) and found them to be MORE THAN 65% less effective in the clamping force on the rotor face than previous versions.
Your car, and the other guys car, either have the older 4 pot Wilwood's with the e-brake not attached at the caliper, or the PBR caliper with the e-brake incorporated in the caliper. It would bug me personally to have bought a Superformance with a set of PBR’s in the rear and Wilwood’s up front. My purchase invoice states my car has 4 pot wildwoods at all 4 corners! But NOOOOOO……it has single pots on the rear. If they worked correctly I would not be so bent!
I received a call from Barry Block (General Mgr. Superformance) today. He acknowledged that there is an issue BUT still says they haven’t figured out whether it’s the vacuum/ vacuum pump issue or the calipers themselves. He said Dennis Olthoff will be receiving several new calipers to try, and will experiment with the vacuum issue with 427R Roush motors. Olthoff already tested Dynalite 4 pot calipers, PBR calipers, Wilwood 41 mm calipers, and Wilwood 34mm calipers…….what’s next?
So….which calipers do you have Wilwood or PBR (finned and look completely different than the front)?
I am convinced that the vacuum issue is a big part of the problem and could be cured with a vacuum reservoir instead of an expensive pump, and do essentially the same thing. I could also BE WRONG!
If Dennis Olthoff wants to replace my rear calipers with a more efficient ones I’m good with that also. After all…Z06 Vette’s only have a single pot in the rear and I could not fault my ’03 Z06. Eight weeks ago Olthoff recognized this problem with the rear caliper and indicated it was the rear caliper back then! I say throw a vacuum canister or vacuum pump on it and see if it works. As it stands now….were not any closer to a solution than we were 8 weeks ago!!! tom

tom

[pooreds]

Great post Tom, I was waiting for that.
Got my car back tonight, hopefully blue smoke issue is solved.
Brake issue is not solved, Stephen tried a vacuum cannister and it made no difference. I've been told to be carefull until there is a solution.
Make sure we hook up on the 19th for the Sonoma trip. ED

[Woodz428]

Originally Posted by wanab5150

. Olthoff already tested Dynalite 4 pot calipers, PBR calipers, Wilwood 41 mm calipers, and Wilwood 34mm calipers…….what’s next?


tom

The fact that those many calipers have been tried and still has poor braking says it all, in my mind. If it was the calipers, any one of them should have corrected it.....or at least made it better. Maybe it isn't vacuum related as I suspect, however I doubt that it it is caliper related. I still can't imagine any vehicle with bad calipers in the back NOT locking the front brakes when they are applied hard, IF all other parts of the system work correctly. Once again it's simple physics..if on end isn't working and you apply more pressure, the end that is working would lock up. You haven't mentioned any time when you locked up the front brakes, that alone is suspect.

[madmaxx]

woodsz428 has a good point, "The fact that those many calipers have been tried and still has poor braking says it all", maybe it is not the calipers. So car 2694 has great brakes and 2690 does not from the two previous post, I would assume they have the same brake components.

I agree simple physics is involved, you push hard enough and they should lock unless these have antilock brakes or traction control, LOL!!