Superformance Brakes (or not)

[rdorman]

Originally Posted by patrickt

I read this as asking "why do you need power brakes in a Cobra to begin with?"

That is correct. Refering to the power assist not vacuum pumps, canisters, etc.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by rdorman

That is correct. Refering to the power assist not vacuum pumps, canisters, etc.

Coincidentally, in the last couple of days I've posted pics of both my front and rear brakes in different threads. The fronts are Sierras on 12.2" rotors, the rears are 12" rotors with the outboard PBRs that went on the 94-97 Camaros. It's really a pretty simple, straight-forward system.

[wanab5150]

Well boys, here is the answer I have been waiting for.................
I received a call from Dennis Olthopp this morning. In so many words, he said he has been working on a cure for the current Wilwood and PBR caliper issue for 10 weeks now and has had a difficult time convincing upper management that there is a problem. (Gee, could it be a money issue with Superformance?) anyway.....As I mentioned in an earlier thread, he did some tests on 34mm, 41mm, PBR, and the old 4 pot Wilwood caliper, and it is clear to him that the PBR's and new 34mm Wilwood is "worthless"! He has found that the cure is the old 4 pot Wilwood that was used from about car#2650 back is the way to go. He said the reason Superformance changed was so they could incorporate the emergency brake and get rid of the old drive shaft unit. He said the old E-brake was pretty bad and he will continue to work on a fix for the E-brake. He said it will take a month or so to sort out the E-brake and will forward the necessary parts for the owner to fix (or take to the shop I would suppose). Additionally, Olthopp states he has completely new brackets comming from S. Africa and pads that actually work comming from France. These new pads are supposed to come on the new retro calipers and will be available for the front as well.
Olthopp said in his opinion, there is no need for a proportion valve as he feels that the NEW calipers WILL NOT overstop the fronts. Below in the next thread I will show an E-mail sent to me and others from D.Olthopp from several weels ago showing the tests and reason he knows the calipers ar bad.
Anyone wishing to be added to a list of cars to be retrofited please E-mail me with your name and phone number. It may help in the long run to have a data base ready with car numbers and the such so no one gets left out....tom wanab5150@comcast.net

[wanab5150]

From:
"Olthoff Racing, Inc." <bolthoff@salisbury.net>
[Add to Address Book]
To:
"Stephen Bramlitt" <sbramlitt@sbcglobal.net>, "Johnny" <dynamicmotorsports@sbcglobal.net>, "Dennis Peck" <dmpeck@aol.com>, "Barry" <barryb@hillbankusa.com>, "Bob Garndner" <rgardner@att.net>, "Tom Winkleman" <wanab5150@comcast.net>, "Tim Osgood" <tim@dynamicmotorsports.net>, "Mike Evangelo" <evang825@aol.com>
CC:
"Justin Price" <Justin@hitechauto.co.za>, "Doug Reed" <reedcobra@aol.com>
Subject:
Brake issue
Date:
Friday, April 04, 2008 5:24:40 AM
[View Source]
OK
Everybody has a opinion.
We have been using the "R" motors for 4 years. Yes they do not make a lot of vacuum. Add a vacuum canister.
We recommend the SR TW motors.
I have no issues with these.
There are only 2 people that I have found that claim to be able to lock the new rear brakes. Congratulations.
Nothing on the cars changed except the rear calipers, and now the car does not stop well.

Look at some of these numbers.
This test was done with a valve spring tester we rigged onto the brake pedal. Engine not running.
With a 150 lbs on the brake pedal we used a torque wrench on the rear axle to see when the disc will turn.

Dynalite 4 piston rear 280 ft/lbs

PBR single piston 180 ft/lbs

Wilwood single 41mm 130 ft/lbs

Wilwood single 34mm 80 ft/lbs

If this does not explain the problem, nothing will.
I do not care if you have 40 inches of vacuum, if the engine is not running it does not matter.
My 02 cents.
Dennis.

[wanab5150]

I failed to mention, Dennis Olthopp seems to be a straight shooter....straight to the point and is dedicated to these cars!....tom

[thudmaster]

Great..........now fix your car and get to Sonoma Tom..............

[bret a ewing]

What are the PBRs?

[rdorman]

Originally Posted by wanab5150

I failed to mention, Dennis Olthopp seems to be a straight shooter....straight to the point and is dedicated to these cars!....tom

You got that right!!!!

[rdorman]

Originally Posted by bret a ewing

What are the PBRs?

Australian company been around for a very long time: http://www.pbr.com.au/index.shtml

I have no personal experience with their products.

[madmaxx]

If this is a fact "He has found that the cure is the old 4 pot Wilwood that was used from about car#2650 back is the way to go." then everyone with a chassis number higher than 2650 should receive a recall notice in the mail instructing them on the path forward.

The source (Dennis) and data he has published is convincing to put it lightly. I only see three outcomes, 1)SPF publishes there braking data to contradict his findings, justifying staying with the new brakes, 2) SPF issues notices to all owners with chassis higher than 2650 there may be a braking issue and revision is in the works and do not drive until further notice, 3) SPF does nothing and jeapordizes their reputation as a premiere replica builder and the lord forbid a lawsuit as a result of an accident due to bad brakes.

[thudmaster]

Keep in mind my number is 2742 and my brakes work perfect..........they are PBR

[bret a ewing]

Thanks rdorman,

Makes sense, then my Baer's are manufactured by PBR - casting initials "PBR".

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by bret a ewing

Makes sense, then my Baer's are manufactured by PBR - casting initials "PBR".

Naah, that's just what the caster was drinking when he poured the mold...

[bret a ewing]

Pabst Blue Ribbon eh
That's funny.

I called Baer, they said they are the North American brake distributor of PBR under the Baer name.
I have two-pot fronts and single-pot rears with e-brake incorporated. I can lock up the brakes if I really nail the pedal. Much better now with the Porterfield pads. No fade after repeated 0-70 stops for bedding purposes. No vacuum assist.
You can increase your master cyl. piston(s) size for less pedal pressure, but softer/slower pedal "feel",
or decrease mast. cyl piston(s)size and increase pedal pressure and harder/faster pedal "feel".

[bret a ewing]

Also you can check your hydraulic pressure and should have ~1100psi front and ~800-900psi rear. I believe Summit sell such devices.
Lastly check your pedal leverage ratio, should be about 6:1.

[Aussie Mike]

I've just been upgrading the brakes on my CR. While I was researching I looked at a few hand brake caliper options for the rear.

I bought calipers from Hi-Spec in the UK and went with 6 piston fronts and 4 piston rears. In the end I stuck with the stock E-brake setup on the rear as I found a larger ventilated rear disk that still had the hand brake drum inside it.

I was planning on using Hi-Spec's integrated handbrake caliper. They make a really nice 4 piston caliper with an extra mechanical caliper in the end of it for the hand brake.

Hi-Spec Hand Brake calipers

Just another option for you.

Cheers

[wanab5150]

Thudmaster, while I think it’s great that you feel you have “perfect” brakes; it’s obvious that the word perfect is a “relative” term. If dragging your feet under the car like Fred Flintstone is considered “perfect” to some, I guess I will have to respect those that are in denial! Ed Sweet has the exact same setup as you and states his brakes are crap. If you’ve read the E-mail from Dennis Olthoff, check out all the others he E-mailed in the heading of the Email……these people are also aware the brakes don’t work and are searching for a solution. These are all knowledgeable people in the field.
All of the experts at this point including Barry Block (Superformance general Manager) told me personally that there’s a problem and HE asked Dennis Olthoff to engineer a solution, which is currently in progress.
Keep this in mind….. At this point, you have been made aware that the brakes are sub-standard whether you want to believe it or not. There is a little thing called liability. If your new Chevy Tahoe had a recall on the brakes, are you really not going to take it to the dealer for repair, even though you consider them “good brakes”? If you don’t get it by now, you may have a second (crashed car) avatar to add to your collection soon.
I’m here trying to help those wishing to get what they paid for in the first place. A car that drives and STOPS as it was advertized. I’m very happy with Superformance as I have stated, and to have them step up to the plate when there’s an issue makes me even more confident in the company. Those feeling that they know more than the designers and engineers, are welcome to proceed in whatever direction they choose. tom

[thudmaster]

Tom, I tried to get you here for a ride to see how my brakes work. I guess Saturday you go for a ride. i don't stick my feet through the floorboard. As I told you on the phone I have more than enough vaccuum.....I am also not running a 427R like you and Ed Sweet..........

[Got the Bug]

Tom - Ed would know if the brakes on SPF 2742 weren't working, as he has a lot of experience comparing the performance of his new car to his previous car (995).

[wanab5150]

I talked to Stephen in Reno today. He was already contacted by Olthoff with the run down on the new caliper set up that is in the works. Stephen was told that since the old caliper mounts at the 3 o'clock position on the right rear of the car, the new brackets will mount the new 4 pot at the 9'o'clock position. The brake line will be removed from the old caliper and attached to the new one.
So you will temporarily have both calipers on the right rear wheel until the e-brake issue is solved. The old caliper will serve as an e-brake because the e-brake cable is mechanical, not hydrolic and therefore does not need fluid. As soon as a solution is found for a new replacement e-brake, that will be sent to everyone to retro onto their cars........oops......except Thudmaster...he doesn't get a new one. lol
This should be easy to do at home, but I would THINK Superformance would have a shop perform the work for you if you wish. Thats the latest....tom