Superformance Brakes (or not)

[Madmiles442]

You know what sucks?
This whole friggin mess is based in the fact that SPF can't engineer a proper emergency brake. A damn emergency brake! For God's sake, how friggin difficult can this be???? This has been going on for YEARS and they're no closer to a solution. If you believe they'll have something figured out in a month (or 2 or 3), I have some coastal land in Arkansas I want to sell you.
I got so frustrated with my POS e-brake, I removed the whole damn thing and it's in ZipLock bags in my garage. I have a friendly to give me Inspections and leave the car in 3rd gear when parked.
As far as real braking, I replaced the fluid with Motul RBF 600 and replaced the stock tan pads on my 4-pot Wilwoods with a more aggressive Wilwood compound and that mother will stop you so fast your eyeballs will be on the dashboard. You will see God.
I wish you the best of luck dealing with SPF's latest "fix" to the e-brake problem and do keep us updated.

[FOMOCONUT]

I've tried to stop my car with just the newest e-brake at 30 mph. It would take half mile to get it stopped . #2773

[bret a ewing]

Hehehe..........guess no Starsky & Hutch 180's.

[madmaxx]

Excellent work and effort Wanab5150. I should be obtaining my new SPF pretty quick, probably days. As far as brake caliper replacement did the mention how it would be handled? I have not pressed the issue but the response I keep getting is they appeared to stop fine but it sounds like in recent days SPF has aknowledged the problem so the response will probably change. If I understand no new brackets or machine work will be required? If that is the case then the remedy should be fairly straight forward, install calibers, connect hose and bleed. If the other brake is working well as an emergency brake why not leave it on there? I guess SPF will have to decide it.

[FWB]

8 inches of vacuum will not run a power booster... i installed a vacuum pump
but be careful most of the pumps out there are junk. i installed this swiss
job, it really works well maintains 18 inches of vacuum and can be run without
a vacuum canister. heres a link. ( i bought the horizontal)

www.metricmind.com/pump.htm

[madmaxx]

Vacuum pump my a$$$$$, hell why do use a vacuum pump that generates 30"? Nothing explains it better than below:
As you can see the best set-up has 3.5 times the braking power of the worst (current) set-up. I guess if we could increase our vacuum 3.5 times from 12" (by the way impossilbe on earth) we still would not have the same braking capacity.


This test was done with a valve spring tester we rigged onto the brake pedal. Engine not running.
With a 150 lbs on the brake pedal we used a torque wrench on the rear axle to see when the disc will turn.

Dynalite 4 piston rear 280 ft/lbs

PBR single piston 180 ft/lbs

Wilwood single 41mm 130 ft/lbs

Wilwood single 34mm 80 ft/lbs

If this does not explain the problem, nothing will.
I do not care if you have 40 inches of vacuum, if the engine is not running it does not matter.

[FOMOCONUT]

So, when does this new brake thing happen ?

[wanab5150]

a mock up should be done in 2 weeks and hopefully we should have something in hand by mid May. 2773huh?......In the mean time buy and anchor! tom

[wanab5150]

More riveting information.............I received a phone call from Steve Cornelius, sales manager at Wilwood. Steve stated that there is no reason he is aware of that the current 34mm piston Wilwood on newer Superformance cars should not lock up the back ends of these cars easily! He said he is currently working with Steven in Reno, Dennis Olthoff, Barry Block and others seeking a solution. Why a solution has not been found yet is a mystery to me at this point. Steve Cornelius stated it may be a mis-matched M/C not allowing enough pressure to flow to the rear brakes as the volume (amount of fluid the caliper holds) is very different to the old 4 piston caliper.
I know Steven in Reno is busting his A** on this issue but the problem is....Steven is NOT related to Superformance in any way other than being an independent shop doing installations and repairs. He does not have unlimited parts and recourses like the factory but has done a great deal of the R&D work on his own dime. He has added belt driven vacuum pumps, electric vacuum pumps, and tried other calipers to no avail. He does believe as does D. Olthoff that a vacuum pump is necessary on big cam engines i.e. Roush 427R's. This will help with pedal feel and make it more drive friendly. It in no way repairs the problem, but it does help feel.
Olthoff is also working the actual caliper problem which he indicates is absolutely the problem but also states a vacuum pump should be added to allow the cars brake booster to function properly.
I heard from some of you that you don't run a booster and think those that do are just lazy and don't want to have to use a lot of BOOT to stop the car. I've received several E-mails from these studs. What you "no booster" boys don't realize is a "booster" brake system has a MUCH LESS leverage between YOUR FOOT and the booster plunger because THE BOOSTER provides the leverage. Without a booster on your system, the leverage ratio is increased so you will be able to use reasonable pressure on the pedal to stop. So...you can't just yank the booster off the firewall and expect to have the same brakes as a non-booster car. This is why there is so much talk of vacuum pumps and canisters. Roush "R" motors don't pull anywhere near enough vacuum to allow the booster to function properly. My Roush 427R pulls 8 lbs. of vacuum at idle while boosters require between 16 and 24 on average to work properly.
Here's a simple demonstration.........Pull the vacuum hose off of the booster of your wife's car...Call AAA to follow her! She will explain that she pushed as hard as she could but couldn't stop the car.. ....Sometimes drawing a picture helps.
About 100 or more of us with these newer cars are facing the above issue. Maybe that's why we seem to be a little on edge.

[FWB]

Originally Posted by FWB

8 inches of vacuum will not run a power booster... i installed a vacuum pump
but be careful most of the pumps out there are junk. i installed this swiss
job, it really works well maintains 18 inches of vacuum and can be run without
a vacuum canister. heres a link. ( i bought the horizontal)

www.metricmind.com/pump.htm

again,,,,i have wilwood brakes. i have 8 inches of vacuum i did not stop without
a vacuum pump. installing one that is belt driven is a pain inthe ass if you already have your engine compartment completed. the metric mind pump is designed for an electric car that produces no vacuum. this pump will provide
the complete vacuum requirements for a power booster. you will hit your face
on the steering wheel with the braking power you will have. just connect it to the booster and connect it to the power and the braking problem is solved. there is nothing wrong with your rear brakes.


Fred

[wanab5150]

Fred....what number is your Superformance? Also where and how did you mount the unit. I would like to ask more questions as I know the electric pump is the way to go and I appreciate your response.
If you would send me your email address i will give you my phone number and we can argue about the brakes some more............but I am rolling over like a dead dog about the elec pump. You're right! tom wanab5150@comcast.net

[jhwalker]

Tom
I posted a note for car #2794 earlier, this post is from my own experience.
I have gone back and reread the entire thread.
My car is an older SPF #2117, but it also has a Roush 427R.

The first time that I tried to brake with the clutch in and low rpm I discovered that the engine did not make sufficient vacuum at low rpm for the brakes to be effective. It scared the poop out of me. It was the same issue that you described earlier regarding the 8" of vacuum.

The next day I took it to my installer and ask them to install a "vacuum assuring device". It was cheaper than changing the engine, plus I like the 427R, and I like the low rpm lumpy sound.

I'm no mechanic, but I know the vacuum pump runs when I turn on the car power and creates vacuum until some specified level is reached, and maintains that vacuum level.

I have never had a problem since I added the vacuum pump or cannister (or whatever it is called). I just spent two days at a track day at Willow Springs and killed a set of tires. I know my brakes are different, but what we have in common is the same is the 427R that makes no vacuum at low rpm.

Since most of the people whom I know who have a Roush 427R have addressed the low RPM lack of vacuum in some way or another, I have suggested to SPF that the dealers remind all buyers that if the engine installed does not make vacuum, NO vacuum-assisted brakes will work.

Keep us posted on how things work out.
JamesW

[wanab5150]

I will be putting a pump on mine soon. My biggest issue is that all, and I mean all, of the experts including Dennis Olthoff who is doing the R&D, told me on the phone he is positive the car needs better R. brakes. There are a few of you that say they're happy with the setup they have. But, you must look at it from my standpoint.....I recognized that there was an issue in March. When I brought it up in my first letter to the company I received an e-mail followed by a phone call from Olthoff stating he "HAS ALREADY BEEN WORKING ON THE BACK BRAKE ISSUE FOR 8 WEEKS!!! This is 6 weeks before I took possession of my car." He has always used a vacuum pump..........Think how my car must feel with no pump and no brakes!
James, your R. brakes are 5 times stronger than mine.(read Olthoff's test again) If you want the same braking force on your car as I have, take a hack saw and cut off 80% of your rear pads and give it a go at Willow Springs and see how she stops. Then the braking power on our cars would match.
Not one single person has made a negitive comment about the brakes on the first 2600 Superformance cars. You said you're not a mechanic....call Olthoff and tell him why he and all the others working on this issue are off they're Ass.
I'm glad you're happy..... I will be soon............ tom

[jhwalker]

Originally Posted by wanab5150

I will be putting a pump on mine soon. My biggest issue is that all, and I mean all, of the experts including Dennis Olthoff who is doing the R&D, told me on the phone he is positive the car needs better R. brakes. There are a few of you that say they're happy with the setup they have. But, you must look at it from my standpoint.....I recognized that there was an issue in March. When I brought it up in my first letter to the company I received an e-mail followed by a phone call from Olthoff stating he "HAS ALREADY BEEN WORKING ON THE BACK BRAKE ISSUE FOR 8 WEEKS!!! This is 6 weeks before I took possession of my car." He has always used a vacuum pump..........Think how my car must feel with no pump and no brakes!
James, your R. brakes are 5 times stronger than mine.(read Olthoff's test again) If you want the same braking force on your car as I have, take a hack saw and cut off 80% of your rear pads and give it a go at Willow Springs and see how she stops. Then the braking power on our cars would match.
Not one single person has made a negitive comment about the brakes on the first 2600 Superformance cars. You said you're not a mechanic....call Olthoff and tell him why he and all the others working on this issue are off they're Ass.
I'm glad you're happy..... I will be soon............ tom

Tom,
I would share your frustration in your position.

The fact that Dennis O is working on it is the clearest evidence that there is SOMETHING very wrong, I would have just liked to have seen the known vacuum issue solved before all of the other work commenced.

I assure you that I can relate to what you felt when you had no brakes -- my heart was in my throat when I sailed thru an intersection on a red light due to being unable to stop my car.

Some of this entire saga makes NO sense to me -- from my California observation point. Maybe later we will all understand better.

Keep the faith. You have plenty of good guys involved in solving your issue. (and Dennis (whom I greatly admire) does not need a call from the least technical guy that he knows... )

James

[Overspeed]

Tom,

I enjoyed the visit we had today.

After driving your car today I would concur with your previous posts that you have a brake issue to the point that it takes a great amount of peddle pressure/force just to stop the car under normal conditions. If faced with a panic/emergency stop situation, with your current setup, it would fall far short of what we would consider (normal).

By the way, this is my first post on the site. I will be picking up my car (SPF # 2772) this coming week, I'm hoping that with the addition of the pump and the slightly larger rear calipers that it will make a better attempt at stopping than yours! -- Gosh this is fun.

Gary

[wanab5150]

Gary, I stood on the tarmac as you guys took off and flew South. I told you my flying days were over, but I have to say it wound me up again seeing those RV-8's. I'd love to take on another plane but I just don't have the dedication to spend 5000 to 6000 hours of building. I think I need a Zanax !
Anyway...........back to the topic at hand....... I got a call from Lance at Superformance at 6PM after you left. He told me the story behind the Wilwood / PBR /back to Wilwood issue. It was partly a manufacturing issue, but there is more to it. He seemed straight forward and honest. This is based on the fact that what he said made sense.
He's sending a transport to the house between Monday and Wednesday. He's supposed to call Monday to confirm the date and time. Apparently, the new 41mm with a vacuum pump will cure all our woes.
This is the same setup Steve called about and has added to your car. Steve said he can't fault it on the street, but wanted to try some track time to verify it is track worthy. I should know more after the Cobra Bash in Reno in about 3 weeks.
There's no absolute answer why an only 9mm larger piston would make a huge difference. Like I said earlier in the thread, in theory the 34mm should work. Willwood said the same thing to me on the phone. Wilwood did mention, as did the boys down at the Corvette race shop here in Roseville, that the smaller caliper may not have matched the valving in the master cylinder, and the 41mm internal volumn ( or some kind of s* is a better match, thus, better brakes even without the vacuum pump.
My car will remain in Reno until the Bash. I will have time on the 160 mile drive home to test and will hopefully leave my last post on this thread the next day.
PS........ Don't forget to have Steve BED the brakes before you pick it up for that 500 mile drive home. He probably already did, but you may want to call and make sure.
You have my number.......tom

[wanab5150]

Gary...just thoiught of this. With the plane and all, why aren't you "Constantspeed", rather than "Overspeed"

[madmaxx]

wanab5150,

To clarify you are getting the 34mm calibers replaced with the 41mm calibers and a vacuum pump?

Thanks

[wanab5150]

As of today..thats the fix
I'll let you know at Cobra bash if it works

[FOMOCONUT]

Tom , thanks for making a stink about this brake problem,Gary summed it up just right. My problem is I'am running out of time. Were taking this car on vacation, Ocean Shores Wa. to Cape May N.J.and back,sand to sand.Depart on May 27th. for 19 days, so we are pulling a small trailer which makes addes to the problem.I've worked my a$$ off to put this trip and car together , I just can't back out now.I put 600 mi. on the car this weekend and everything works great but the brakes and wipers. Yes we get rain here.So I got gust four weeks to get my hands on some real brakes. Should I go to SPF? Do you have e-mails ?