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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 12-10-2012, 05:17 PM
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It looks like the first pic on post 36 is the correct style huh Bruce?
Dan makes a good point if it doesn't say West Germany on it it is likely post 1990 or too new for us. The Eloras are still available today but not the double open ended BSW's that I can find.
I think you're right Glen the English parts of the car were BSW and the American drivetrain parts are mostly UNC fasteners.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 12-10-2012, 08:21 PM
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Default Wrench Style

Nick, Do you mean your post 36 on this thread?

My wrenches are different than any picture I have seen on the thread. The 289 wrenches from EBAY look like it but not enough detail to show. I'll take a picture tomorrow so you can see, the sizes are stamped in a stamped circle that is about 5/16 in diameter. No Witworth notation or anything like that.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2012, 04:16 AM
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Hi Bruce, yes that's what I was thinking but I'm looking forward to seeing what yours look like.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:45 AM
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Default Spanners for Cobras

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickmate View Post
Hi Bruce, yes that's what I was thinking but I'm looking forward to seeing what yours look like.
Nick,

I only have three spanners left, I might have some more at the other house with my emergency tool box, not sure though. The two larger ones look a little more like yours but are polished and have the size stamped in a rectangle shaped depression along BSW stamped right below the size. The other side has BSF below the size and the the size designation is different. The smaller spanner (1/8 and 3/16) only has the size and it is stamped in a depressed circle on one side only. Did you guys have a king with a short foot in the early 1900's? I am guessing that different thread counts with the same flat dimensions had different bolt diameters. Right after I bought my car I got a set of adjustable wrenches because I really did not like these spanners and I HATE adjustable wrenches. I had to tighten a lower ball joint retainer on a road trip with the hammer and screw driver that came in the tool kit because the supplied spanner would not fit inside the lower upright access hole. It was on the grapevine route to LA and it was snowing, not a happy experience.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2012, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickmate View Post
It looks like the first pic on post 36 is the correct style huh Bruce?
Dan makes a good point if it doesn't say West Germany on it it is likely post 1990 or too new for us. The Eloras are still available today but not the double open ended BSW's that I can find.
I think you're right Glen the English parts of the car were BSW and the American drivetrain parts are mostly UNC fasteners.
Nick,
This West Germany versus Germany issue has been chased for years and somebody in my circle that is from what we call Germany today doesn't understand how anything could be marked just 'Germany' prior to the end of the Cold War because as we know the name it didn't exist in the 1960s. I have not exhausted every source but most sources indicated that the marking of parts a 'made in ...' some place originated when internal trade laws were developed and the United States of America was claimed to be a big reason anything headed to the U.S.A. was marked with its country of origin. Multiple low mile original or second owner cars have wrench sets marked just Germany. Some of these wrenches were in still never opened original pasteboard boxes when an investigator in this century opened the box and unwrapped the wrenches for the first time since they were new. (To be 100% original you need the correct box with wrenches, clamp, and protective wrap around the wrenches, that has never been opened. Can't be many left as eager investigators go after unopened packages in these cars with zeal to see what is inside . Find a virgin and fix that situation. Non-intrusive investigations are possible. )

Elora is an old tool company and just a little investigation indicated that over many decades they had more than one manufacturing plant. The No. 100 series of wrench sets (there are several different ones including metric sizes) is a style like Ford Mustangs is a style of car said that way. Saying Elora No. 100 wrenches is almost like saying oak tree acorns, similar but different and with many variations.

Several people have found Germany and West Germany marked wrenches in Cobras before the modern rush to round up sets. The exact designs are different, the markings side to side between variations is different, there are different fonts, and different surface finishes. Makes sense, age old manufacturer making a 'style' of tool for multiple decades, produces variations over time. Makes sense, different plants different tooling even in the same time frame can often be quite different. I have a radial arm saw in the shop made by a company still in business. Mine is a fabrication of a collection of parts bolted and welded together. A similar saw same manufacturer made about ten years later is made up with cast to near net shape parts instead of a bunch of weldments. Similar but different.

I could never get a reply of any kind from the modern company when I tried to get answers to these questions. We may never know the entire story. I do have a theory. How about counterfeits? What if the genuine Elora company made tools marked W. Germany or West Germany and a forger (counterfeiter) made tools marked just Germany not knowing the ins and outs of what trade agreements were between governments across international borders? Counterfeiting of anything that can me profited on is a very big global business today and even national chain retailers fall victim occasionally. Maybe, just maybe the explanation for AC Cars getting tools made in a country that didn't exist technically was they were a victim of bogus parts? There has to be an explanation but we may, as I said, never know what it is.

So what do I tell owners of original cars looking for wrenches, 'get a set where they all match each other'. Singles are not very expensive and are for sale almost all the time. Rookie buyers might end up with a set of the correct sizes in two or more different versions and or they buy the sizes smaller and sizes smaller thinking they are AC Cars tool kit correct. I have purchased a bunch of singles across most of the size range for the shop 'Cobra toolbox'. They are good tools and fit the British Imperial hex nuts and bolts well. (They won't do everything on an original car. The lower front ball joint for Cobras/427 Cobras/AC 289 Sports requires box end wrench with an offset. I have worked on cars where users removed and installed the stop nuts on ball pins with hammers and pin punches.....)

AC Cars used fasteners with British Imperial hex sizes. All but just a few threaded parts are BSF or BA thread. There is one application for BSW threads. In the hydraulics systems there are some internally used standard threading. Working on original cars requires a good selection of tools to cover multiple tool and standard thread systems.

DC
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 12-12-2012, 05:26 PM
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Great overview Dan.

Do you know how many spanners and what spanner sizes were in the original 427 tool kit?

Cheers
Greg
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2012, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my427cobra View Post
Great overview Dan.

Do you know how many spanners and what spanner sizes were in the original 427 tool kit?

Cheers
Greg
A post above (#13 I think) shows the typical five pieces, the wrapping paper, and the box complete with the sizes printed on the box. Not shown, least I didn't notice it is the clip that holds the set in a bundle. I said typical because there are variations in everything, example three different clips in two designs. Cobra, 427 Cobra, or AC 289 Sports, the sets are not "Cobra" anything as they are right out of the Draper tool catalog and which version of which landed in what car seems to be a function of what AC Cars received and who took what out the stock room when to put in what car Aceca, Ace, RS2.6, Cobra, 427 Cobra, or AC 289 Sports.

Also bear in mind that both AC Cars and Shelby American provided replacement sets for years. Shelby American was still sending out replacement sets at least into 1970. AC Cars sent them out as replacements longer than that. I have been around and working on old cars since circa 1961. One of my first parts lessons way back then it that service parts are not always just like production parts. Depending on the item, sometimes no service part is like the original production part it replaces. I had a 2003 Ford that had a one part redesigned for service twice in one year after production because of repeat failures of the original and the first service redesign. Eventually, took years, the third design failed in the same manner as the first. Having been exposed to service versus production issues since 1961, having learned that very few service parts for anything from AC and lots from Ford in Cobras/427 Cobras/AC 289 Sports are exactly the same between service and production, I wonder how many sets in original cars now are actually the ones they left AC and or SA with. At least a few cars didn't make it to dealers with tool kits so what were they sent as replacements? I can imagine a lot of variables that can happen at Elora, Draper, AC, and Shelby between 195? (same brands/styles tools used in the 1950s) through 1971 or later. It would not have mattered back then . Example: Did the "Germany" sets creep into cars as replacement sets? When Shelby sent out replacement sets did they get them from AC, Draper, or some nameless bargain tool dealer via the pucrhasing department?
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2012, 05:35 AM
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As an aside, it seems odd that a German company was making Whitworth spanners. AFAIK, mainland Europe never used these threads (and the AF sizes for Whitworth and UNF are completely different). This sort of stuff (as used in Healeys, Morris Minors, etc. etc.) was often branded 'King Dick', BSA, or similar. Oh, and please don't try typing the first one into an internet search engine.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 12-13-2012, 07:41 AM
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Thanks Dan. I think I'll be happy with the matching set I've got given all the variations. At least they will match the ones used by Bruce Canepa in the CSX 3360 restoration.

Now on to detailing and painting my Shelley jack and getting a tool roll sewn up.

Cheers
Greg
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Old 12-14-2012, 07:32 AM
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As a CSX4000 series owner I love what you guys are doing. I believe the Cobras built at AC had a set of spanners supplied, while the Imperial Hwy Cobras were delivered with a set of end wrenches. Mine came with Snap-On's.........Just a wee bit of humor in a serious thread.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 02-10-2013, 01:58 PM
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The photos of the wrenches from CSX 2384 show that the smallest wrench was "made in West-Germany" and the largest wrench was "made in Germany". I am positive that these are the original wrenches that came with CSX 2384 because I pointed out the toolkit in the trunk to the original owner and found the unopened box of wrenches in the tool bag. I did open the box but did not unwrap the wrenches because I thought that was inappropriate for me, not being the owner of the car, to do. The new owner did unwrap them as was his right.
I do have an Elora set that is in the box, never unwrapped, one of the later styles with both sizes listed on the same side of the wrench.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 12:51 PM
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Default Tool kits

Hi guys.

Great research work and fantastic information.

I know i'm coming "late to the dance" here- - -by a few years.

Reading through the three pages of information i came away with the impression that "someone", "somewhere" was eventually going to make, remanufacture or somehow create complete original tool kits.

I'm very much in the market for one - - or at least for a "shopping list" that i can use to search for the individual components.

Any help - thoughts or directions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks - - and - - y'all have a really great day.

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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 01:24 PM
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I'm just about finished with my tool kit. Just waiting on the brake bleeder tool and the little wavy wrench clip. Getting the screwdriver right was the tough one.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 03:09 PM
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Good Job - - - Would you please share your sources ??

Thanks.

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Old 08-20-2015, 03:34 PM
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Nick Acton has a reproduction bleeder tool and the tool roll (I think). The spanners (wrenches) aren't all that rare and can be found separately or in sets often on eBay. Thor #2 hammers are still made though vintage ones show from time to time, also on eBay. An original BDS Engineers screwdriver is in the realm of unobtainium. Your best bet if time and/or money are any consideration is a vintage Stanley screwdriver. The shape is similar and can be painted in similar fashion to the BDS.
Don't forget the Shelley Jack, Tommy Bar and handles as well! All are getting rare and going up in price quickly! Nick does have a reproduction jack and I think handles as well.
Check out his site: Acton Custom Enterprises, Custom Metal for Cobras
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Old 08-20-2015, 03:44 PM
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Almost forgot, the grease gun shows on eBay quite often. The BDS pliers, from time to time but they do show up. Just keep searching!
Larry
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Old 08-20-2015, 04:07 PM
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What Larry said. And the squiggly spring clip that holds the wrenches together is also very rare.

Cheers
Greg
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2015, 04:16 PM
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Here's a pic of my tool kit:


I replicated a BDS screwdriver.

Cheers
Greg
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2015, 10:34 AM
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What is the Black, Rectangular shaped device just above the pliers?

Thanks Jack
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Old 08-22-2015, 11:24 AM
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It's the Elora spring clip that holds the wrenches together.
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