CSX4158 For Sale, but Salvage due to Flood

[RodKnock]

Kirkham supplies the rollers to Shelby. Shelby raised their alloy roller prices (again) to $125K. Kirkham has not raised their roller price of $57K. Hmmm.

All things considered, I'm liking the salvage CSX deal more and more.

[snakehunter]

Thanks everybody, I feel welcome already. It was a real gut check to bid on the car. I got lucky and found it with enough time to spare, so I tracked down Kirby and a friend of the owner before him and got some firm info. I nearly pulled an all nighter road trip to inspect it, but in the end decided to just take the chance. What I really need to know won't be readily visible anyway.

It ended up a little more pricey than the prebid that's visible on the site, but still a good deal considering what the individual parts cost.

I'm going down Monday to get it, and plan on doing all the work myself. I should state up front that I represent a private collection but am the conservator and head lackey, so its my baby for the time being and fortunately we can afford to take a hit and do it right if necessary. We like to buy cars with interesting histories...

My main areas of concern will be the block and engine internals, especially considering that GA has had several hard freezes in the last month or so and new Shelby blocks are on a long waiting list. I've been told there are 4 or 5 cars at SAI now waiting on motors.

Upholstery, etc will all be replaced, and everything else disassembled and addressed as needed. I've never done a flood car before but there's always a first time.

I'll post pics as I get the car and will be happy to maintain a thread about progress once we get into it. It may be a couple months before work really begins, because I've got another project on the burner already.

PS - I do not plan on 'washing' the title, but I find it an interesting topic for discussion. If this was a '65 built car vs a 2002 built one, I think the issue would be different. Then again, title legalities were much less strict for the previous generation...

[mickmate]

Snakehunter we have a Shelby engine almost done and coming for install in a new Shelby roller. It looks like less than 3 weeks. I would bet that motor survived even the freezes, if they can handle combustion forces they can handle a little freeze I bet. You'll find out soon enough. I was thinking pop a rivet out of every tube in the frame and put the chainsaw (environmentally friendly and sticky) bar oil to the inside of each tube. You'll figure it out and have the right approach, to document it well and keep it all above board.

[snakehunter]

Great idea on the bar lube. I was wondering myself whether water may have gotten in the tubes, and thought of perhaps flushing it with linseed oil like airframe builders did back in the day (still do?).

That's the kind of stuff that keeps you awake the night before a big purchase!

mickmate - that muncie-nailhead adapter on your webpage looks pretty neat. Did you fab that?

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by snakehunter

Great idea on the bar lube. I was wondering myself whether water may have gotten in the tubes, and thought of perhaps flushing it with linseed oil like airframe builders did back in the day (still do?).

That's the kind of stuff that keeps you awake the night before a big purchase!

mickmate - that muncie-nailhead adapter on your webpage looks pretty neat. Did you fab that?

What can you tell us about the actual flood damage? Was this car a partial or full immersion? Salt or fresh water? Any pictures of the car before they cleaned it up for the sale? Got to love a car with history.....Wish you the best with the restoration.

Sincerely,

Bill S.

[snakehunter]

To the best of my knowledge it was about 6 feet under in fresh water during a flash flood, or as fresh as GA river water can be =)
The only photos I have so far are the ones from the auction company, but I may try to track down the original insurer and see if they can provide claim photos.

Anybody want to make bets on what we'll need to replace vs repair? Still nervous about cylinder walls and corrosion...also the muffler guts must be full of crud too!

[slider701]

This thread below might shed little light into what happened to the owner's other car, a Ford GT during the flood last year in Atlanta, GA (fresh water)

http://www.fordgtforum.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=17761

That car sold at auction for $77K. I'd sooner try to fix a CSX than a Ford GT with flood damage.

[slider701]

When I was 16 a friend of mine buried his dad’s 70’s - 80’s Chevy truck in the middle of a stream at night after many hours of drinking. The next day he went back and the water was running through the cab of the truck at seat level. Somehow he managed to get it started and drove it about ¼ mile to a paved road where it died.

Anyone who says oil and water doesn’t mix has never seen water run in an internal combustion engine. When I got there I pulled the dipstick and it looked like it had mud on it, but it was actually oil mixed with water, now a brownish color.

We took the drain plug out and nothing came out other than a small drop that resembled baby poop. We had it towed home and thought about what to do with it since he still didn’t tell his dad what happened. We decided to try to flush the engine with kerosene, which we did, running 5+ gallons it of through it. We just kept pouring it in the top with the drain plug out and allowing it to flush through the engine. After the 5 gallons we then put fresh oil and a new filter in it and started the engine up and let it run for a few minutes. Then we drained the oil and it didn’t look much better in color than the original oil but at least it came out. I think we then ran another 3 or 4 sets of oil through it (20+ quarts in total) and we finally got the oil to come out looking semi-clean. He then drove the truck for several days and changed the oil once again. Fortunately this kid’s dad was out of town and he had a few days to allow it to dry out. To this day I don’t think his dad ever found out about it.

As for this Cobra I would imagine that the engine, trans, and diff will need to come out and be completely disassembled. The engine will most likely need new bearings, the cylinder walls honed or bored and either new rings or pistons and rings. I’m sure the heads will need completely redone but most of the parts will be salvageable. The brake system can probably be saved but will need completely emptied/flushed, calipers rebuilt and filled with new fluid (probably wouldn’t hurt to replace the flex lines. I’m sure it will need new rotors and pads due to surface rust/aesthetics (if it was a passenger car they could be reused easily)

I would replace the starter, alt, fans, distributor electronics (pick up in the dist and also the MSD box if equipped). The wiring harness will need to come out and be completely dried out, inspected for rusty pins and either replaced or repaired. Naturally the carb will need to be replaced the fuel system completely flushed out. Depending on rust in the tank it may need replaced along with the fuel pump.

As already mentioned the seats, carpet and other upholstery will need replaced. Depending on the original condition of the paint and how much clear was on the car it might even be possible to scuff the paint with some 1000/1500 grit and then buff it out.

Although it sounds like a ton of work it really shouldn’t be much more than building one from scratch, at least you have everything there in one place to start with.

[Excaliber]

Why does it have to have a Shelby block for the engine? An original style iron FE block, an after market alloy block or whatever should do the trick and save a few bucks.

Myself, I would prefer an original FE block as far as that goes.

[mickmate]

It could have a 390 and run but it is listed in the registry with a Shelby ally engine. It's easy to justify because it's original and it's the best. Not my words the words of the guys that run the fastest Thunderbolt in the world with, yes a Shelby engine. Gear oil has good tackifiers in it these days I don't believe rear end or gearbox will be an issue. Snakehunter will figure out what it all needs when he has it in front of him. The rest is just conjecture at this point. The maths is pretty simple though, ally body 25K, chassis 10K, CSX# 10K, complete rear end 10K, front end 5K, wheels and tires 2K if there's anything saveable beyond that it's all a bonus. The gauges for example I would just send to Nisonger and have then go through them, it's still less than a new set.

[RedBarchetta]

Originally Posted by slider701

When I was 16...

That's all I needed to read to know it was going to be a good story. I could just see you two freaking out and running every petroleum product you could find/afford/steal down the gut of that engine.

[Excaliber]

Well Snakehunter won't be under as tight a budget as many of us would be. I would assume the block is certainly salvagable. Possibly a bore for all cylinders or perhaps a sleeve for the one or two subject to rusty bore syndrome. However, assuming the block was trashed I personally would opt for a more original vintage block than an after market block. The Shelby name plate on the motor itself just doesn't impress me enough to pony up the extra dollars to get it.

OK so here we have a CSX with a genuine 427 alloy Shelby motor, OR, a CSX with a genuine date coded 427 side oiler. Same car, same options but with two different engines. Which one carries the best re-sale price?

Edit: BEST re-sale price is based on amount of dollars invested vs amount of dollars returned, in my book. If I spent $40K on the Shelby motor vs $20K for the date coded FE, I'd have to sell the Shelby motor car for $20K more! So maybe it comes down to which one is "cooler"? Hard to put a number on that... date coded for me.

[RodKnock]

Ernie, first I would prefer a new alloy CSX or even a Pond block. I really don't have a hankering for a vintage block for many reasons, but mostly I don't want the extra 100-125 lbs on the front end. I would pay more for a car with an aluminum CSX or Pond block than I would a vintage S/O. But that's me.

Second, a nice vintage S/O block is more or less the price of a new aluminum block. Where's the price difference of $20,000?

[Excaliber]

I'd build it myself first of all. I would guess a typical Shelby engine would be 30 to 40K, I don't think you could "shop around" and do one for less. But you could certainly shop around and do a vintage block for less than $20 even. Substantially less depending on the internals.

[mickmate]

$20,500 for a new 452 FE from Shel it doesn't make sense to me playing the game with a 45 yr old engine you can easily get the same money into. Do you know how many guys I've talked to that have std bore unmolested 427 sideoilers lately, what a bunch of BS. I would use a vintage motor if that was the theme or an original.http://www.carrollshelbyenginecompan...me.php?cat=256

[dcdoug]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

OK so here we have a CSX with a genuine 427 alloy Shelby motor, OR, a CSX with a genuine date coded 427 side oiler. Same car, same options but with two different engines. Which one carries the best re-sale price?

I think that depends on when it is resold. They will continue to build more new alloy Shelby engines and won't be building anymore date code correct 427 side oilers (obviously). So the vintage engine is going to appreciate over time, while the "new" alloy Shelby will depreciate as it's used.

[RodKnock]

Originally Posted by Excaliber

I'd build it myself first of all. I would guess a typical Shelby engine would be 30 to 40K, I don't think you could "shop around" and do one for less. But you could certainly shop around and do a vintage block for less than $20 even. Substantially less depending on the internals.

Vintage blocks have got to be around $5,000 +/- and a Shelby aluminum block is essentially the same price. The CSX block adds less than a $1,000 to an FE build.

KC advertises an aluminum FE with a CSX block for $19,000.

Roush does sell 511ci FE engines with stack injection for $30K-$35K.

I agree with Mickmate. I started to look around for a vintage block, but: a) couldn't find a good one, and if you did, it was the price of a new alloy block, and b) the weight loss on the front end is/was crucial to me.

[Excaliber]

Seems to me Kieth was offering a similiar "modern FE" build for about $10,000 less than that recently.

[dcdoug]

If you decide you want an NOS side oiler, I know that Dwight Powell, an engine builder outside of Atlanta, still has the NOS parts to build them. Similar pricing to the new alloy engines. And I agree with RodKnock, the real trade off for me was weight savings vs vintage.

[screwdriver]

Originally Posted by slider701

It appears to have sold for $38,525, not counting any premiums, tax or other charges that the auction could of added on.

The car came for 52and a bit plus auction fees and went to Ohio.