Club Cobra Gas-N Exhaust  

Go Back   Club Cobra > General Discussion > Shelby and Racing History

Keith Craft Racing
Nevada Classics
Main Menu
Module Jump:
Nevada Classics
Nevada Classics
MMG Superformance
MMG Superformance
Advertise at CC
Banner Ad Rates
MMG Superformance
MMG Superformance
MMG Superformance
MMG Superformance
March 2024
S M T W T F S
          1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31            

Kirkham Motorsports

Like Tree1Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:03 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Riverside CA, ca
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 600
Not Ranked     
Default On the mixing of replicas with authentic old cars at concours

I broached this subject first on a forum but was shouted down because some owners of replicas want to be able to park wherever they want but there wasn't space enough for me to elaborate why I think they ought to be in a separate section. I found another forum where I could post an editorial
on that subject for those that are interested. At the next big SoCal concours, I'll see if the organizers agree with me or if it's "anything goes." Here's the site with the editorial.

Welcome to MMR | Motorsports Marketing Resources
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:47 AM
DougD's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Des Moines, IA
Cobra Make, Engine: Sold my beloved Shelby CSX 4068, Gessford 427 Ford
Posts: 756
Not Ranked     
Default

It's not just the Cobras. This has been going on for a long time. Duesenbergs and other classics that have been rebodied are looked upon as being less desirable than an original car. Most makes don't enjoy the extensive documentation that SAAC and others have been keeping track of for decades, so it sometimes gets difficult to say what is or is not correct and authentic. At a concours, though, I feel that the cars should be authentic. There are plenty of car shows where an owner of a replica can display his or her car and enjoy it. Leave the concours to the authentic cars.
__________________
CSX4068, '69 Bronco, '70 BOSS 302, '87 Mustang GT, '08 Roush Trak Pak
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:49 AM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: scottsdale, az
Cobra Make, Engine: FF5 347 stroker
Posts: 867
Not Ranked     
Default

Originals are Originals. Why not keep them seperate. As long as you are true to test of original or real. I think Utah makes the best, period. So put them in a class by themselves. The rest are fiberglass(most) and be in that category. So no continuation or replica flaming. IMO built in the 60's and then the others.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 10:39 AM
Nedsel's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
Original Shelby Owner


 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Cobra Make, Engine: COX 6111 - '66 "AC 289 Sports."
Posts: 1,572
Not Ranked     
Default

Wallace, I agree with you. But in defense of the La Jolla Concours, for which I serve on the organizing committee as well as a judge, I can tell you that there were NO replicas mixed in with the original cars on the show field. Which is to say, none of the cars eligible for judging were anything other than what they were stated to be. At this show, however, we do have a "car corral," in which a variety of cars participate. Within the corral there may well be replica automobiles. And if the owner of, say, a fiberglass M-B Gullwing reproduction wants too claim that his car is a "1955 Mercedes Benz" because SEMA and other organizations think this is acceptable, under the guise of labeling a car as that which it most closely resembles, well - I guess that's the owner's prerogative. I think you might be surprised at how many people at a show actually know the difference and simply accept the subterfuge as a common practice.
__________________
Ned Scudder
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 11:30 AM
patrickt's Avatar
Half-Ass Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 21,889
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedsel View Post
I think you might be surprised at how many people at a show actually know the difference and simply accept the subterfuge as a common practice.
Yep. Because... if you know what is going on, then it doesn't matter. And if you don't know what is going on... then it doesn't matter.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 11:59 AM
SunDude's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ottawa, ON
Cobra Make, Engine: 2002 Superformance w/392 stroker
Posts: 1,602
Not Ranked     
Default

I gotta say, this really hasn't been a problem up here in the Nation's Capital as there are no original Cobras here to get in the way of our replicas.

But I am always amazed at how many visitors to the show have an uncle with an original Cobra at home in the garage... if only they could remember the chassis number... ;-)
FatBoy likes this.
__________________
"Anyone who drives faster than you is a Maniac,
and anyone who drives slower is an Idiot." - George Carlin

Last edited by SunDude; 07-23-2012 at 12:11 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 02:22 PM
Nedsel's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
Original Shelby Owner


 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Cobra Make, Engine: COX 6111 - '66 "AC 289 Sports."
Posts: 1,572
Not Ranked     
Default

[quote=SunDude;1201526

I am always amazed at how many visitors to the show have an uncle with an original Cobra at home in the garage... if only they could remember the chassis number... ;-)[/QUOTE]

Next time, bet them $100 that they are full of it. Then, if they get insulted and go bring back the chassis number, you have something to work with. That would be worth the $100.
__________________
Ned Scudder
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 02:59 PM
Silverback51's Avatar
Senior Club Cobra Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Covington, wa
Cobra Make, Engine: Superformance # 532, 466 BB, 560HP
Posts: 3,027
Not Ranked     
Default

Nope, does not matter what kit, replica, or continuation series it is. It's not an original and does not belong in the same area.
__________________
John Hall
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 03:33 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hillsboro, OR
Cobra Make, Engine: Scratch built CSX style frame, Carbon fiber body, 393 Stroker, T-bird IRS, T5
Posts: 1,623
Not Ranked     
Default

Agreed, the replicas don't belong in the same area or classes as the originals. Isn't that the definition of a Concours?

On this note though, I would like to see classes set up at more historic races for replicas. It seems the originals are getting so valuable these days, fewer of them are being raced and the historic race fields are getting smaller each year.

Bob
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 03:55 PM
1985 CCX's Avatar
Senior Club Cobra Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Manchester, NH
Cobra Make, Engine: AK1085 (302), HTM111 (427 Comp), CSX2375R (289 Comp) and Scratch 427 S/C
Posts: 18,750
Not Ranked     
Default

Let's face it CSX2000 is the original and the rest replicas of that car....

Just messing around, come on now!

Concourse events are for a car that is original and in the state it was from the factory. There are two divisions which allow for totally original cars and original cars with replicated parts. That said when we talk 1960's CSX2000, CSX3000 cars only they can be in concours and not even all of them qualify; replicas ERA, FFR EM CCX including MKIV and new Shelby's would not qualify. I am a replica owner and also realize that my investment is 10X less than that of an original car. There is a place for replicas its called a car show, cruise night or possibly popular vote class. Concours is for the real deal....... Not for 100% reproduction cars

Let the bell ring....

Last edited by 1985 CCX; 07-23-2012 at 03:58 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 07:08 PM
mreid's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chester Springs, PA
Cobra Make, Engine: Kirkham 289 FIA #690, FRPP 427 Boss engine
Posts: 764
Not Ranked     
Default

Why is this even a question?
__________________
RCR GT40 SOLD to Fast 5
Kirkham #690 289 FIA
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 07:15 PM
patrickt's Avatar
Half-Ass Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 21,889
Not Ranked     
Default Because...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mreid View Post
Why is this even a question?
Because the question is not "should it occur," but rather, if it does occur, and with the tacit approval of those who could, apparently, prevent it from occurring, but nevertheless choose not to, does it really matter, and if it does, why do they choose to sit idly by to begin with?

Last edited by patrickt; 07-23-2012 at 07:17 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 07:43 PM
Nedsel's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
Original Shelby Owner


 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Cobra Make, Engine: COX 6111 - '66 "AC 289 Sports."
Posts: 1,572
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by patrickt View Post
Because the question is not "should it occur," but rather, if it does occur, and with the tacit approval of those who could, apparently, prevent it from occurring, but nevertheless choose not to, does it really matter, and if it does, why do they choose to sit idly by to begin with?
None of the concours events I am aware of encourage entrants with reproductions to enter them as historic cars, and many prohibit replicas altogether.
__________________
Ned Scudder
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 07:54 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Cobra Make, Engine: A&C Cobra, 521 CU BBF, Holley ProJection, T56 Magnum, 3.5:1 TruTrac 9-inch
Posts: 275
Not Ranked     
Default

well, i love my little replica - but it should not be in a concours judgement next to the real-deal. i'd be happy getting an award in a replica class.
__________________
Driving fast keeps you young. Just ask Einstein....
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 08:05 PM
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Cobra Make, Engine: A&C Cobra, 521 CU BBF, Holley ProJection, T56 Magnum, 3.5:1 TruTrac 9-inch
Posts: 275
Not Ranked     
Default

csx2000 being the real deal
__________________
Driving fast keeps you young. Just ask Einstein....
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 07-23-2012, 08:27 PM
LMH's Avatar
LMH LMH is offline
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 5,389
Not Ranked     
Default

Having competed in concourses with a Porsche in the 80's and early 90's, I don't see the issue here. Unlike a car show, a concourse is a competition on how close to original an original is. A replica would not be able to be competitive as it was never produced by the original factory, whatever make that would be. Points are deducted for repaint, new upholstery, missing tools ( I used to get dinged on that one) etc. So a replica would have no chance and the judges wouldn't be interested in judging it anyway.
Cars put for display only weren't judged, so they weren't in the same area as cars that were.
I think that's how it should be.
Larry
__________________
Alba gu brąth
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2012, 04:54 AM
patrickt's Avatar
Half-Ass Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #732, 428FE (447 CID), TKO600, Solid Flat Tappet Cam, Tons of Aluminum
Posts: 21,889
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMH View Post
So a replica would have no chance and the judges wouldn't be interested in judging it anyway.
Of course. On the other hand, Ned would probably award a big fat trophy to any replica Cobra that could fool him in to thinking it's real. But he's a judge; a replica doesn't matter to him, nor should it. Instead, look at it from the gallery's perspective. Here, suppose I have three paintings on my wall: A Gaugin, a Renoir, and a van Gogh. And after you have been admiring them for a good ten minutes or so I tell you "Only one of them is real, the other two are fakes." Have I just: 1) Increased your viewing pleasure; 2) Diminished it; or 3) Made no change. Now don't just knee-jerk answer; think it through first.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2012, 05:02 AM
xb-60's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Adelaide, SA
Cobra Make, Engine: AP 289FIA 'English' spec.
Posts: 13,139
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1985 CCX View Post
....Concourse events are for a car that is original and in the state it was from the factory....
What if a CSX2xxx car was modified to a similar level to a factory racer (and raced, let's say, so it develops a different provenance).....how is it judged if presented at a concourse?
Not thinking of any particular car of course.
Cheers,
Glen
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2012, 06:35 AM
Nedsel's Avatar
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery
Original Shelby Owner


 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Vero Beach, FL
Cobra Make, Engine: COX 6111 - '66 "AC 289 Sports."
Posts: 1,572
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xb-60 View Post
What if a CSX2xxx car was modified to a similar level to a factory racer (and raced, let's say, so it develops a different provenance).....how is it judged if presented at a concourse?
Not thinking of any particular car of course.
Cheers,
Glen
Glen, under the circumstances you describe, the car would be in the "race car" class rather than the "original as delivered/ street car" class, which would involve very different criteria.
__________________
Ned Scudder
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 07-24-2012, 07:05 AM
LMH's Avatar
LMH LMH is offline
CC Member
Visit my Photo Gallery

 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Tucson, AZ
Cobra Make, Engine:
Posts: 5,389
Not Ranked     
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by xb-60 View Post
What if a CSX2xxx car was modified to a similar level to a factory racer (and raced, let's say, so it develops a different provenance).....how is it judged if presented at a concourse?
Not thinking of any particular car of course.
Cheers,
Glen
I'm sure the powers that be in whatever event the car is entered do it differently but how the PCA handled it was that a factory race car would have scored more points than one modified by a private builder. Period mods would be worth more points than those done at a later date. That's how it was done when I was was involved in it.
Larry
__________________
Alba gu brąth
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0
The representations expressed are the representations and opinions of the clubcobra.com forum members and do not necessarily reflect the opinions and viewpoints of the site owners, moderators, Shelby American, any other replica manufacturer, Ford Motor Company. This website has been planned and developed by clubcobra.com and its forum members and should not be construed as being endorsed by Ford Motor Company, or Shelby American or any other manufacturer unless expressly noted by that entity. "Cobra" and the Cobra logo are registered trademarks for Ford Motor Co., Inc. clubcobra.com forum members agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyrighted material is owned by you. Although we do not and cannot review the messages posted and are not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we reserve the right to delete any message for any reason whatsoever. You remain solely responsible for the content of your messages, and you agree to indemnify and hold us harmless with respect to any claim based upon transmission of your message(s). Thank you for visiting clubcobra.com. For full policy documentation refer to the following link: CC Policy
Links monetized by VigLink