351 Distributor

[Rick Parker]

How about fiittng a reducer bushing in the block?

[Jac Mac]

Hi Ant, Rick,

351w spigot on shaft is 0.513" [ Five Hundred and Thirteen thousands of an inch ].
So a sleeve would only have a wall thickness of 0.0115" with your 0.490" spigot...
If you ask me ICE have stuffed up on these, ALL 351w blocks are 0.513" IIRC...THE only 0.490" blocks were AUSSIE Manufactured 351 c with the electronic Bosch Distributor.

The ICE site states that the distributor you have has one roller bearing & one bronze bush, so the gear face that contacts the block controls the end thrust as Ford intended, the roller brg & bush do not. They dont state whether the roller brg is @ top or bottom.

Personally Ant I would not be happy with that amount of clearance @ the spigot even though you are not going to have the oil pump load, yes I realise the ICE distributor body extends right down to the gear & therefore it should be more stable than the Ford setup, but the amount of support is still the same in the block, how nice a fit is the dizzy in the block?, whip the rubber o-ring off & try it..

[Ant]

Thanks for the replies, Jac Mac I have tried it without the o-ring and its quite tight estimate between 0.005 - 0.008" also the bottom sleeve above the gear is just a loose sleeve and does nothing.

I have a good mind to send the bloody lot back and tell him my engine builder won't support this part being fitted to the engine.

[Jac Mac]

That is probably the best way to approach it, I doubt that they would recompense you in full for any resultant damage to the cam plus whatever else might need replaced at same time as when you get wear in the distributor drive like this you also get into that area of erratic ignition timing etc, it all starts downhill from there.
I was a bit amused at the FAQ section on their website as to why they felt it was not necessary to run a large dia cap to prevent crossfire etc, with the reply being that it was better to ensure accurate timing control & have good conductivity in plugs/leads etc..sort of goes against their thinking when they put a product out like this that could lead to that very problem, especially with a wet sump pump & bronze gear for a roller cam...like a lot of stuff in the aftermarket, be careful about what you really will end up paying for..

[Ant]

Jac Mac,

I have sent an email asking to send back and refund, then I will start all over again considering I have sold all my MSD complete ignition with spares.
I think a lot of people over emphasize the use of having an aftermarket ignition when a simple Ford setup might do with a good ignition box, need to do a bit more research.

[Ant]

I may still be able to use the ignition system ICE sent if I can find a compatible Hall effect distributor.
I have also heard good reports on Ford Duraspark distributors and coil, where you can get a reliable setup that will spin to 7500rpm, which maybe good for a backup system, or main system.

Options and more options, all this research is keeping me out of the shed.

[Ant]

This looks interesting and simple,

Ford DUI - Racing Version

I have looked at Crank trigger ignition dont know if they are worth the extra expense and I think you still have to have a distributor, plus with all the dry sump pulleys and spacer I would have to setup all the belts to WP and Alt again.

[bobcowan]

The DUI distributer is pretty popular, and seems to work well. It's just another version of the GM HEI. The good side is the simplicity. The bad side is that it's pretty big. Much bigger and taller than a Mallory Unilite. It would make your problem worse, instead of better.

Most crank triggers will need a distributer. You could use something like EDIS8 or CNP/COP off a crank trigger, and eliminate the distributer altogether. That uses a 36-1 crank trigger wheel, which is only 1/8" thick. Easy to make spacers for everything else. You can also get full control of your timing curves, and eliminate weights and springs.

[Ant]

Bob,
That looks interesting how Edis8 works with the missing tooth on the wheel, and a good old Ford part. Jac Mac maybe a fan of those probably not that accessible in NZ like you can pick up at the wreckers in the US. Yes I haven't really got the room for the DUI etc and need a lower profile.

I received an email from ICE he is adamant that his distributors don't need the spigot as they have done all these tests with the Engine Masters etc and never given a problem, it would be interesting to have a camera inside the engine when running a high volume oil pump and see the shaft deflection, and if the gears moves off the camshaft.
If I send the dist. back he will do a custom shaft job and join a larger shaft to the existing shaft. I have decided to go that way and keep the ignition system due to the good results in the field. Although there was probably not that much wrong with MSD as there are many happy customers and they have a rep for good service, like this chap in Aussie.

I think the problem with ICE might be the low volume Ford market doesn't warrant a dedicated windsor distributor so he is making one product work with the Aussie cleveland small shaft getting the better deal.

[Jac Mac]

The Ford duraspark dizzy is approx 8" from the block face/register where the clamp mounts to the top of the fitted right angle coil lead in center of cap. Is that too tall...

[Ant]

Jac Mac,

A Ford Duraspark wouldn't be much taller than the Cleveland distributor, I think I need to source a Duraspark, coil etc and have a complete Factory backup system.
Once I get the Ice package up and running it should be ok.

[Jac Mac]

DUI do an upgraded version of the Duraspark [ check the DUI website ] where they add another bronze bush to the gear end of the housing....early Hi-Po & 289 distributors were done like this until the Ford Bean counters decided they could make more profit with only the one bush... You can probably get enough from ICE to upgrade the Duraspark with rev limiter etc or MSD can also work with it, question is will it all fit with regard to height, can send you up an old Duraspark body with cap if you want to try it for size..

[Ant]

Originally Posted by Jac Mac

DUI do an upgraded version of the Duraspark [ check the DUI website ] where they add another bronze bush to the gear end of the housing....early Hi-Po & 289 distributors were done like this until the Ford Bean counters decided they could make more profit with only the one bush... You can probably get enough from ICE to upgrade the Duraspark with rev limiter etc or MSD can also work with it, question is will it all fit with regard to height, can send you up an old Duraspark body with cap if you want to try it for size..

Will have a look at the DUI website and will give you a bell.

[Ant]

Spoke to Performance Distributors,
They said they can do a Cleveland Duraspark Distributor with a Windsor gear. Their Cleveland distributor is 1-1/2" lower profile than the Windsor.

Not sure on what advance is needed as they require you to fill out a spec sheet of camshaft specs, weight of car etc As I will be running the ICE ignition box which has about 80 advance curves to choose from e.g. starting from range 1150 -1450 and finishing range 2900-3800.

[Ant]

Latest update, spoke to Distributor supplier, he told me a Ford Duraspark distributor isn't compatible with his ignition. He is going to cut the distributor shaft below the housing, make up a sleeve to adapt the larger shaft with drive gear to small shaft, then pin each shaft to sleeve.

[Ant]

[quote=Jac Mac;1156658][i][b]DUI do an upgraded version of the Duraspark [ check the DUI website ] where they add another bronze bush to the gear end of the housing....early Hi-Po & 289 distributors were done like this until the Ford Bean counters decided they could make more profit with only the one bush... You can probably get enough from ICE to upgrade the Duraspark with rev limiter etc or MSD can also work with it, question is will it all fit with regard to height, can send you up an old Duraspark body with cap if you want to try it for size..

Jac Mac,
Going to wait until the ICE dizzy returns and look at fitting a new shaft, I imagine the shaft fits down through top bearing, and the top plate is welded on so that might be limiting factor, maybe able to remanufacture with new bearing bush etc and re-weld top plate. You mention the block is 0.513" can you advise on distributor shaft size for clearance?

Ford Duraspark from Performance Distributors look real good and they do say you can use another ignition box coil, as you have suggested look at MSD, the old MSD 6420 is discontinued and they have replaced that with digital, and have a computer programmable version. I guess its handy to have programmable advance curves I don't know whether they work with the Duraspark...!

[Rick Parker]

Ant:
I'm having difficulty with what you are attempting to achieve.
I think the Sprint Cup boys spin their 358 CU in engine between 9200-9600 rpm and if not gear restricted could achieve 10K. They do this with either MSD boxes and use Crane or MSD distributors.

[Ant]

Originally Posted by Rick Parker

Ant:
I'm having difficulty with what you are attempting to achieve.
I think the Sprint Cup boys spin their 358 CU in engine between 9200-9600 rpm and if not gear restricted could achieve 10K. They do this with either MSD boxes and use Crane or MSD distributors.

I thought I had my ignition sorted when I purchased the ICE setup, the bubble burst when I couldn't exchange the distributor for a standard shaft to fit the US blocks as they don't supply bigger than 0.490" - so one size fits all that are larger than that. Its a damn shame to sell it here and probably loose up to 33% of its value second hand. My idea of reworking the dist is one option

Jac Mac suggested going Ford Duraspark as they are reliable simple and less expensive compared to some aftermarket distributors, no doubt consumables like Caps and Rotors need replacing from time to time.

What I am trying to achieve is a reliable ignition capable of giving good spark to 7500rpm, and suitable for road use.

[Jac Mac]

Ant, I think you might have got 'ICE' to see the light, their website has a whole heap of info pages that are no longer available, so they might be in damage control at the moment.

Rick, IIRC this whole episode started with Ant wanting a distributor with a lower fitted height for clearance reasons..

[Ant]

I have come up with an idea buy a Duraspark from Performance Distributors get the advance setup for my application then remove the advance mechanism so that it can be used with an MSD, Crane box etc for an alternative system option.

Then lock the dist for use with the Ice ignition box (not sure if I need anther advance mechanism to do that) now as the Durasparks (MSD) magnetic pickup isn't compatible with the Ice box, use the distributor as a crank trigger distributor and buy a Moroso crank trigger and that way I use the Duraspark distributor and have all the benefits of the Ice programmable box.

The Moroso bracketry won't be compatible with my engine due to dry sump pump on RHS engine, would have to fabricate bracket and sort timing out.