Weber's or IR Injection

[Tom Decker]

First post be gentle, I've decided to go either with weber's or a IR injection induction system. Winsor (Dart Block) stroked to 3.75 with 4.125 bore a little on the wild side. 95% street usage. Can't decide on which induction system. Weber's seem to be a proven system with plenty of documetation to back up proformance #'s, but apperently their hard to get right IR injection seems to have alot of guessing currertly on sizing and resulting profomance #'s. Hilborn, nice system, electronics way to simple for me. IR size seems to be a guess with no documentation. TWM nice system no electronics, management system must be purchased sep. just a guess on final #'s. Aus system no electronics, management system must be purchased sep. just a guess on final #'s If I'am missing something please help In the end either way has the same $ tag

[Mr.Fixit]

The runner sizing is based on all the perameters you give to the FI company. You say that Hilborn's electronics are "way too simple" but you are considering running 4 weber carbs. That makes little sense to me. You will get a much better fuel curve from a "simple" efi management program which simulates mechanical fi, than you would from 4 webers. Especially at less than full throttle.

[Tom Decker]

To clarify "simple" they use no O2 sensor, so you would have to add a seperate unit or tune by ear & plugs. Seasonal changes may also require a tune up. They only use coolant temp & throttle position inputs. It starts to sound me like a 5000.00 great looking carburator. I have felt with speaking to the different mfg's that one kind of fits all and if you don't like that one we have another size ava. I always base discissions on facts and it seems in this case, unless i'am missing something not alot of r&d or history ava.

[Mr.Fixit]

You sounded like you were on the fence between webers and an individual runner fuel injection system.
The problems you have with ther Hilborn FI setup is inherent on a multicarb setup as well. Even with multi-feedback efi, since you are not running a factory setup, you will still have to tune by plugs, sounds, and drivability to get your baseline tune-up. The differences between carburators and fuel injection are numerous, even with true mechanical FI. Mechanical FI makes more power than carbs. A simple efi controller that mimics mechanical FI fuel delivery will make more power too.

[Jeb]

Originally posted by Mr.Fixit
The problems you have with ther Hilborn FI setup is inherent on a multicarb setup as well. Even with multi-feedback efi, since you are not running a factory setup, you will still have to tune by plugs, sounds, and drivability to get your baseline tune-up. The differences between carburators and fuel injection are numerous, even with true mechanical FI. Mechanical FI makes more power than carbs. A simple efi controller that mimics mechanical FI fuel delivery will make more power too.

I am not familiar with the Hilborn setup but if it doesn't use an oxygen sensor then it is probably pretty rudimentary.

If you are considering EFI, I would suggest you work with an experienced tuner. BDS in Florida is one I know of. This tuner can lead you through what would be needed for a good EFI system, including a means of gathering vacuum in a common plenum for good MAP readings and ditto for the IAC.

Also, since you are dealing with a Windsor block, there are any number of routes you could take using the Factory harness and control system (you could probably do something like a TWM setup being fed by a common air-intake/plenum area being fed by the mass-air sensor) , again it would help to have someone to guide you through your options.

The thing about using a tuner is you can often get a close base-map from him to get you close and started. Speedpro tuners abound and SBC efi-maps can closely approximate what you will be needing.

If you're going to spend thousands on efi (or webers) I would make sure that the end result provides you with the flexibility/capability you need to best power your car.

[289FIA]

Above feedback is all good. I'm in a similar dilema. Would like a complete engine management (Injection and timing) for a mild hyd. roller 302 that is flexible enough to allow for future modifications.

Ever consider Edelbrocks Pro-Flo system for Fords? Seems rather complete with fuel pump, distributor, ignition amplifier, ECM, intake w/injectors & regulator, 1000cfm throttle body, O2 sensor and a calibration module (no laptop required). Anyone in the Club have any experience with this on a Ford motor? Want to keep it within budget (really!), so $5000 for a Hilborn setup is too rich for my needs. Great looking though!

289FIA

[Mr.Fixit]

I have dealt with the speed-pro efi computer installed by BDS on a 351w that was probubly made for a SBC since that's how the injector harness was numbered. It has an O2, map, tpis, and water sensors. It was controlling a Kinsler individual runner intake. The tune-up put on it by BDS was terrible. Car made less power on the dyno than the holley 850 and victor jr that it replaced. I tried improving the tune, but only made a little headway in the drivability department. Car was sent to a "tuner" near sacramento who found more low end torque, but the overall drivability was still in the toilet.

I have replaced a holley pro-jection 1000 cfm that was on a 427 with a 1050 dominator. Car made lots more power, and drivability was unchanged. But the pro-jection is just a carb replacement, most of the benefits of FI are not incorporated since you are still sucking everything through a venturi and a carb style intake.(unless you're putting on a paxton or similar)

289FIA...
Just run a factory 302 setup, a mild hydraulic 302 is what it was made for.

[Jeb]

The early Speedpro systems were not the greatest, being geared towards racers and WOT operation primarily though also sold to streeters.

There is a new version out which is supposed to be far superior to what was previously available.

I AM NOT RECOMMMENDING OR ENDORSING SPEEDPRO.

I bring it up because it seems to have become the aftermarket efi-of-choice with the SBC crowd and as such, has a lot of aftermarket support both in parts (GM sensors) and people familiar with it.

I have heard good things about MOTEC. Though all good things heard about it start with how pricy a good version of it (capable of closed-loop operation) is.

I use Electromotive. For startup map creation, it basically set itself up after some basic engine parameters were entered. It uses GM sensors. It requires additional tuning, but it incorporates an autotune function where you basically turn on the data log feature and drive. Based on actual feedback from the driving session it can update your map. Beyond that, yes it still requires tuning on your part. Some people consider that to be fun.

And I agree that for a mild 302, use a factory system, you can buy a complete harness now from Painless that will let you use a factory controller in a streetrod type vehicle.

[acaskie]

Tom,

I know the EFI systems can be made to run great and can be tweaked with a laptop, etc, etc. I like the Webers because they also can be made to run great, they look great, and that's what the original cars used to have.

There is no question that it takes some doing to get them right, but I have found that there are experts readily available on this forum who really know their way around Webers and are happy to help you out. Cal Metal and Enzo Alibrandi are two.

If you hit the search function for "Weber" you will see a ton of threads on a full range of topics.

I bought my system from Inglese who took all of my engine specs into account before designing the system and suggested a new cam in the process. With a few fits and starts, and one change of main jets and air correctors, I'm running like a banshee. Balancing is a snap. The real tuning challenge is getting the appropriate pieces into the carb in the first place. The increase in torque vs. my old Holley set-up is truly amazing.

In the past, the book on Inglese was somewhat mixed, but more recently they seem to be much improved, and they have been great to me. I think their new tech director, Dan Miller is very good at what he does and very accessible as well. I had one carb that refused to function properly and Inglese overnighted me a replacement without a whimper.

I understand that Roger at Pierce Manifolds is also very helpful as well as a good source for Weber systems and parts, although I have had no personal experience there.

In all I'm sure there are plusses and minuses whatever you do, but don't shy away from the Webers because you think they are too much trouble--they certainly don't have to be. Good luck what ever you decide.

[Tom Decker]

289FIA Spoke with edelbrock engineers early on in the journey and eliminated them because their largest injector on the small block ford setup would only handle 450. This is even at 60psi fuel presure. I was told no other injectors without modifycations would work in their system. Besides the above, seems like a nice system. Jeb Motec system from my reseach is first class but electronics alone 5000.00 Acaskie If I knew I could get the webers right without seasons of heart ake, those crome plated bueaties would be mine For the record Eletromotive Tec3 engine management looks like the best in my book 2800.00 Still have not decided waiting to here from weber users

[Mr.Fixit]

I am telling you guys that the Hilborn system with the super-simple computer is a great way to go. Hilborn has been doing FI for a long time,and makes castings for other companies (kinsler). Mechanical FI makes great power, which is why it's so popular with sprint cars, but the efi version is easier to tune. No jets, pills, cam driven fuel pump, etc. If it seems too simple, compare it to the "controlled vacuum assisted gas leak" a.k.a. carb that you are already running. I have gone for a ride in a SPF with the hillborn FI and it was much faster than the same motor with an 850 and vic jr.

[RICK LAKE]

My two cents. Right now I have a Speed -Pro computer sequential, wide range O2 sensor, two tier map sensor,IAT sensor, 1200 cfm throttle body. I am have problems with my supercharger drive system. I have 55 lbs injectors on a single plane Dove intake that I drilled and welded the bosses into Total bill was 3700.00 I went to Second Ave Speed and had the car Dynoed. Whe it was done, It idled smoothly at 800 rpm, starts right up and goes WOT with no flat spot on accelleration. Next year I am going to 58MM TWM throttle bodys like the Hot Rod build of by Mike Lefevers. It was not the cheapest way to go but the best overall way for a car that may run in 100F one day and 50F the next. It is nice to go out and just turn the key and it fires up without the smoke and shaken. My car can pass 98 NJ emmissions without cat convertor. Just another point of view. Rick Lake Carbs may make more power in the upper RPM scales, but FI makes more where it counts, all over the mid range. This Applys to weber carbs also. Why do you think they have 6 different sizes. 48 webers on a BBF run out of flow at 6800 rpm. On a small block 9000rpm is possible.