shoulder belt mount location

You’re rather entertaining, mr0077, or Ken Smith. I asked for data and documentation on the proper mounting of a three point system. You didn’t (or more likely can’t) supply it. Instead, you chose to attempt to discredit both myself and the sanctioning body I work for.

You stated: “Without roll cages and other intelligent safety upgrades, the 5-point is only marginally better than the 3-point.” I’ll make my point perfectly clear: Prove it.

Speaking of reading capability: In one of my previous posts with regard to this issue, I mentioned SFI on several occasions. I’m sorry, I assumed someone such as yourself would know what I was talking about. SFI is a foundation devoted to the testing and development of safety equipment along with safety regulations, primarily used in motorsport. You might remember seeing their logo on specific safety equipment products. The NHRA updates their safety regulations in concert with SFI testing. The following manufacturers are participating members in the SFI Performance Specification 16.1 (Driver Restraint Assemblies) program:

Aerospec (Australia)
Amspec, Inc.
Auto Power Industries
Auto Pro/Racer Wholesale
Bell Motorsports/Pyrotect
Chute Metal Corporation
Crow Enterprises, Inc.
Deist Safety Equipment
Excel Race Products
G & B Safety Equipment
Guyon Racing, Ltd.
Hooker Custom Harness
Illinois Ballistic Products
Jager Safety Equipment
Leaf Racewear
Luke Racing Systems, Ltd.
M & R Products
Momo USA
OMP Racing
Red Wood Enterprises
RJS Racing Equipment
Racer's Choice, Inc.
Rich Safety Restraints
S-Line
SafeQuip
Schroth Restraint Systems Corp.
Sparco s.r.l.
Speedway Specialties
Stockridge Racing (Willans) (England)
Stroud Safety
TAK Racing Enterprises
Taylor Motorsports Products
Team Simpson Racing, Inc.
TEAMTECH Motorsports Safety, Inc.
TNT Performance
Total Restraint Systems, Ltd. (England)
TRW/Sabelt
Ultra Shield Race Products
Vulcan Chain Corp.

Why is this list important? When a sanctioning body approaches the SFI with regard to regulations, the SFI Technical Committee begins the specification process. To quote the SFI: “Technical committees are comprised of individuals from all facets of industry, scientific and motorsports sanctioning organizations with expertise in their areas of endeavor to provide a comprehensive cross-section of knowledge.” While the spec is being developed, the SFI encourages manufacturers such as those listed above to participate. In case you haven’t figured it out by now, NHRA safety regulations are based upon considerable past experience as well as findings of the SFI.

The following is a list of sanctioning bodies that are members of the SFI Foundation, Inc. Each of these sanctioning bodies incorporate SFI Specifications within their respective rule books. Some of these names may be recognizable to you. By the way, the SFI also provides a technical and chassis inspector certification program that is used by a number of the following organizations. This may give you some insight into your question: “When someone complies with the NHRA rulebook attach geometry, how does a safety inspector know that the structural integrity of their framework is suitable without an analysis of their frame?” And as a matter of fact, the NHRA uses SFI specifications for chassis construction.

ADBA - American Drag Boat Association
AHDRA - All Harley Drag Racing Association
AMA - American Motorcyclist Association
ANDRA - Australian National Drag Racing Association
ATPA - American Tractor Pulling Association
CART - Championship Auto Racing Teams
CSDBA - States Drag Boat Association
DEKRA - DEKRA Automobil AG
DRL - Drag Racing Ltd.
FFW- Fun Ford Weekend
FIA - Federation Intenationale De L'Automobile
FHRA - Finnish Hot Rod Association
Goodguys/VRA - Vintage Racing Association
IDRA - International Drag Racing Association
IHBA - International Hot Boat Association
IHRA - International Hot Rod Association
IMCA - International Motor Contest Association
IRL - Indy Racing League
ITPA - Illinois Tractor Pulling Association
MTRA- Monster Truck Racing Association
NDRG - Norsk Dragracing Gardernoen
NHRA - National Hot Rod Association
NIRA - National Import Racing Association
NMCA - National Muscle Car Association
NMRO - National Mud Racing Organization
NSCA - National Street Car Association
NTPA- National Tractor Pullers Association
NZDRA - New Zealand Drag Racing Association
SBF - Svenska Bilsportforbundet
SCCA - Sports Car Club of America
SCTA - Southern California Timing Association
SDBA - Southern Drag Boat Association
Svensk - Swedish Drag Racing Association
SLDBA - St. Louis Drag Boat Association
UHRA - Unlimited Hydroplane Racing Association
USAC - United States Auto Club

As far as the differences between military aircraft, GA aircraft and say, something like an acro plane (Pitts, Extra, etc.), why don’t you contact Bob Stroud at Stroud Safety Equipment. He has an intimate knowledge of aviation safety equipment. If you talk to Bob, tell him I said “Hi”.

I hope that answers some of your questions. As I alluded to previously, you’re amusing. Instead of providing documentation on how to properly mount a three point system, I’ll be polite and say you’re simply off and running, skirting the issue completely. You haven’t provided anything except your opinion. Unfortunately, your opinion means nothing to me. And speaking of absurd: Even more unfortunate is the fact you are meddling with the safety of others, with nothing to offer except criticism of me and bravado for yourself and your buddies. I can sleep at night. Can you?

And by the way, I’m still waiting for your three-point installation documentation.

Wayne Scraba
Wayne Scraba Motorsports
Kirkham Owner & Dealer

[Richard Hudgins]

Bob P wrote:

“Shoulder harness mounts should be mounted high - close to shoulder level or higher. Otherwise you will be pushed down, not held back in the seat.” This is absolutely correct. But the angle up should not exceed 5 degrees for an upright driver position. (Reclining is a whole different design and dynamic issue-the upward angle becomes greater in this application.)

Wayne then wrote:

“Please folks, use caution when it comes to shoulder harnesses. I beg to differ with Bob on this topic. Five point harness assemblies (particularly the shoulder harness) absolutely must not be mounted higher than the shoulder. It’s an invitation for disaster or worse. I’ll be blunt: You can kill yourself with that approach.”

This is not correct as stated. Mounting above the shoulder line within proper design limits is acceptable and recommended by the FIA and practiced by all automobile manufacturers.

Wayne then includes the following excerpts from the NHRA rule book. “SECTION 10:5 DRIVER RESTRAINT SYSTEMS” and “SECTION 10:11 SEAT BELTS.” The only reference to position is in “SECTION 10:11 SEAT BELTS” and it says “All harness sections must be mounted to the frame, cross member, or reinforced mounting, and installed to limit driver's body travel both upward and forward.”

RDH Note: The forward vector is controlled by the combination of the two belts. However, upward motion should only be controlled by the lap belt and the shoulder harness should not apply any compressive force to the body.

Then Wayne posted the drawing showing the shoulder belt locations. Fine. This is what NHRA wishes and has been the standard in SCCA etc. for many years.

However, if one would read the SCCA rules you will also notice the statement “Shoulder harness should be installed 90 degrees to spine at shoulder line to minimize compression injuries under high “G” loading.”

The FIA mandates that shoulder belt mount height in F-1, F-3000, and Touring cars be at least 5 degrees above the shoulder line to eliminate compressive forces in a frontal impact.

In other words, Wayne’s statement of “absolutely must not be mounted higher than the shoulder” is certainly at odds with others and the statement “It’s an invitation for disaster or worse. I’ll be blunt: You can kill yourself with that approach” is patently incorrect.

The reason that shoulder belts in normal passenger cars are mounted high is to eliminate compressive forces being induced in a frontal impact. The reason that they are so high is to allow the systems to work within the 95th percentile that the design engineers have to deal with. (You know 5 foot 2 to 6 foot 4.)

If one would look at many of the current production cars such as Mercedes etc, One would notice that the upper mounts are adjustable for the height of the user. The owner’s manuals go into quite a bit of detail as to location of the belt and they state quite clearly that under no circumstances should the shoulder belt be below the shoulder line.

Now, it is not my intent here to make anyone wrong. Therefore, I wish both Bob P. and Wayne to accept my apologies in advance for using their respective posts to illustrate the points I have made. You are both to be commended for giving excellent guidance to the members on this very misunderstood subject. I have seen way too many extremely dangerous installations of belts and seats in all manner of vehicles and the Cobra typically is one of the worst.

As Wayne stated “I suggest you contact: Stroud Safety Equipment, Simpson Safety or Deist Safety and solicit their points of view” This is the very best advice of all. These folks have lived with driver safety for many years and certainly know what they are doing.

Best Regards,

Richard Hudgins
http://www.jblmotor.com

[Bob Putnam]

Richard,

Thanks for your input. It's nice that someone has "the book". I'm sure that everyone understands that we all just want to make the safest car possible, for every customer's needs.

I hope that Kim hasn't been overwhelmed by this controversy.

Bob P. -ERA-

[Richard Hudgins]

As a quick aside Wayne.

I reccomend that you read the SFI article located at:
http://www.sfifoundation.com/seatbelt.html

You might notice that the included angles are a bit different that what you have said.

I quote directly from the SFI page.

"The end attachments of the shoulder harness must also be installed at appropriate angles. The ideal position is anywhere between 5° below and 30° above the driver's shoulder, as seen in part C of the Figure.

If the upper attachment point falls significantly below the driver's shoulder, then a spinal compression injury is likely to occur. In an accident situation, the shoulder belts pull down and back on the torso as they resist the forward motion of the driver. The resultant restraint force compresses the spinal column and will add to the stresses in the spine already caused by the force of the crash impact."


It seems to me that your statements need a bit of looking at and you need to apologize to Bob P. at the very least

(You were the one to bring in SFI after all to support your position.)

Regards,

Richard Hudgins

http;//www.jblmotor.com

[David Kirkham]

Gentlemen and I do mean Gentlemen:

I don’t like to see us mud-slinging so let’s keep it civil. We are all here to learn and to have a good time. Enough said on that.

When one of us goes over 300 mph in a Cobra I think we will then have enough experience to disagree with Wayne. I say that somewhat tongue-and-cheek as I do slightly disagree with him on this point, but it should get my point across. Those men really do know what they are talking about. Michael Schumacher (spelling error, sorry) and Mario Andretti NEVER dreamed about going THAT fast…ever. Drag racing is the only known sport which is crazier than sprint car drivers who start their engines in their garage… We have all seen the wrecks. A tire blows out, or whatever, HARD right, (or left as the case may be), and they plow the wall with an amazing amount of force--only to be run over by the guy behind them who is going 300 as well. Wasn’t Dale Earnhardt only going 150-180 when he hit the wall? Roughly half the speed. Now that’s food for thought.

I have known Wayne a long time (7 years) and I have never seen or heard him talk like this ever before. Must be something he is really passionate about. I don't think any of us have our names in the record books—he does. (Any one out there who does, please let me know. I always like to hear about other’s achievements like that. I like to talk to them so I can drain them of some of their knowledge.)

I digress:

Wayne has hard-earned experience in a very competitive sport and has reached the top. That’s more than I have ever done. He is speaking from experience and the rule book which has managed to keep many a drag racer alive for many years. Deaths are very few and far between these days because of that rule book. The rule book was written the hard way—with men’s (women’s too) blood. Lousy way to get data, but a whole lot more accurate than any computer or simulation a crash dummy will ever see.

This is an issue we here at Kirkham Motorsports have wrestled with for many years. The issue is complicated and messy. After a long struggle with the problem, we have decided on a few things here.

(BTY, we at Kirkham Motorsports are not easily impressed with anyone’s claims or articles which are written. We don’t believe things just because they are in print.)

I think a critical issue in this thread that no one seems to have grasped yet about the three point anchoring system is that it is the only system of all those being discussed that has a PULLEY in it. Think about it from a physics point of view. As your body goes forward in an accident, you stretch the belt on your chest which goes through a pulley to the lap belt which TIGHTENS the belt on your lap—sucking you down into the seat… hmmm 4,5, and 6 points can’t do that. The 3 point system answers the problem quite effectively by “pulling” you down at your waist thereby avoiding the spine crushing problems. That’s why the mounting position of the shoulder harness on a 3 point is not so critical; just look at the OEM cars, the shoulder position is all over the place. The 3 point system is amazingly good.

However, the party changes entirely with 4,5, and 6 point systems. If the shoulder belts are placed high above your shoulders, what keeps you in the seat in a violent crash? A really interesting test is to have someone pick you up while you are all belted into your favorite rocket. Have any of you ever tried that? I have. It’s scary. You can move up an AMAZING amount. I move up a full 4 inches. Remember your head in a roll-over? The roll-bar is short on a Cobra anyway and certainly not that high. To further complicate the issue, your “lap” belt is not on your lap. It is above it and across your hip bones. (That’s where it needs to be—we’re talking 4,5,6 point systems here and not 3 point which should be worn lower on the lap.) That’s why there is so much room to move up and down. Just what we need, our head bouncing up and down on the pavement if we roll over.

Have any of you seen the crash test dummies in action? They “fly” out of their seats about 6 inches, if I recall correctly, in those 35 mph crash tests. If you are 6 inches out of your seat, what is keeping you from flopping around and kissing the steering wheel, windshield, door frame etc. You obviously need something to keep you in the seat.

If the belts are placed too low below your shoulders, what keeps you from breaking your spine? As the belt tries to straighten out it compresses your spine and you are all of a sudden 2 inches shorter. It really hurts when the doctor tries to stretch those 2 inches back into you spine in the ER.

So, what’s the answer? Well, those are not easy questions to answer. I will tell you what we have decided here at Kirkham Motorsports after a long struggle with the problem.

2 point. Completely out for the driver. No one likes the taste of the steering wheel. Passenger side--we use the 2 point because in the original car there is no other good place to mount the shoulder harnesses. (If anyone has any good ideas, we will be very eager to hear them and implement them.)

3 point. Good system. Not practical for our car. The car has a much more racing feel to it. Don’t get me wrong. I am not knocking anyone’s 3 point system in their car. I just isn’t our bag.

4 point. Absolutely forbidden anywhere/anytime. Because there is no pulley to “pull” your lap down in an accident, you will submarine in a forward accident. The worst part is the lap belt will crush your rib cage as you slide under it. Punctures the liver, and other things, if you are lucky. If you aren’t, it punctures your lungs and you can’t breathe any more. Just sitting in a car with a 4 point system makes me queasy. The “lap” belt is so high and I can just see those shoulder straps “shortening up” in an accident pulling the lap belt up to my ribs. No thank you. (I realize the belts are actually lengthening in an accident, but as you go forward, the shoulder belts “pulley” over your shoulders forcing you down and pulling the lap belt up.) If the lap belt climbs up, you are in for a very bad ride.

5,6 point. That’s why they invented the 5 and 6 point system. The crotch strap is not there to give you a vasectomy, it is there to prevent the lap belts from killing you. Come to think of it, I’d rather have a crotch strap vasectomy than two punctured lungs…

Therefore, all Kirkham cars, that are supplied with seat belts, are now supplied with a 5 point system. No if’s and’s or butt’s…NO EXCEPTIONS. We tell all customers to not use the crotch strap is certain horrible injury and possible death in an accident. We place the shoulder harnesses slightly below the shoulders 1-2” maximum and tell the customers to go to a driving school. 4” inches below the shoulders seems like playing with fire, (sorry Wayne).

There is a really great article on the subject in Victory lane.
http://www.victorylane.com/nov98_tech.html


Happy Motoring!

David Kirkham, President
Kirkham Motorsports

p.s. Sorry for the long post, but you guys know by now that I am long-winded.

[Kim Pallister]

Oh my.

First off, thanks for all the interest in the thread. Second, you guys are yelling past each other to some degree.

Let me re-iterate. I have a cobra with lap belts. I feel aprehensive when driving it. I feel like if I get in a 5mph fender bender, I'll end up with a big dent in my noggin from the windsheild frame, and/or a bruised sternum. I feel a 3 point system will be better than a lap belt alone, let less inconvenient than a harness. I intend to mount it in the best position possible (that's why I'm doing the research, I don't know what that is), and I intend to make sure it is mounted heavy-duty to the frame.

I realize this isn't perfect. I realize it can't compare to a full harness. If I was *really* concerned about the utmost level of safety, I wouldnt be driving a cobra at all.

Wayne, I appreciate your knowledge and insight, but again, I'm not racing the car, and am willing to assume some level of risk.

David, thanks for your insight and trying to bring peace to the thread. You are both engineer and humanitarian peacemaker :-)

Again, thanks for all the interest, but I feel this has degraded a big to a "my knowledge of safety restraint engineering is bigger than yours" discussion. Let's take it down a notch. We're all friends, right...

KP

[Turk]

Kim, you are right. Let's take it down a notch.

We at Road Serpents have researched the safety matters far more than any other manufacturer out there.

It has been the policy of our company to provide the safest environment for our customers, and our employees alike.

We even have safety zones here at work that have provided 100% immunity to our employees and ourselves. Immigration officers, bill collectors, and IRS agents have had NO luck finding any of us during a raid right in our own plant.

We have hidey places that look like molds, we have 55 gals. drums with fake bottoms that can hide two employees at a time.

We know safety, we live and sleep safety. So, with that reputation, what we have in the way of DRDC (Driver Retention During Crashes) is second to none.

When we speak, everyone listens, including Wayne and Bob.

We have successfully used Super glue to keep drivers in their seats during some of the most violent crashes. We tried Velcro, it don't work.

CAUTION:Cyanoacrlate must be allowed to cure without the aid of any accelerator.

From the Company who brought you J.B.Weld cars.

You glue your little tooche,using 1-3 tubes.
1 for casual driving.
2 tubes for road racing.
3 for drags.
You ain't going nowhere.

You simply slip out of your driving suit,leave it attached to the car until next time.

SAFETY is Job No.1
Road Serpents, Safety Director and crush dummy.

TURK

I HAD WRITTEN A RESPONSE - READ IT - RE-READ IT AND THEN DELETED IT. I SEE NO PURPOSE IN CONTINUING DIALOG THAT HAS DETERIORATED BENEATH THE POINT AND VALUE OF HONEST INTEREST IN A SUBJECT.

I WOULD, HOWEVER, ASK THAT WE ALL CONSIDER THAT "GOOD MANNERS" IS THE LUBRICANT THAT KEEPS THE GEARS OF SOCIETY TURNING.

HAVE A GOOD ONE,

BLACKJACK

[David Kirkham]

Kim,

I bet you didn’t think you were going to start WWIII, did you? Just teasing guys. I will be the first to admit I am no expert on the subject--just a careful observer who wants to do what is right.

Kim--remember—if you are driving down the freeway at 75 and you are in a head-on with another car going 75…that is like a 150 mph crash. Roughly the same speed that killed our friend Dale.

I did have a typo in the last post. We do not supply 5 point harnesses, we supply 6 point harnesses. Sorry for the mistake. (I guess I was caught up in all the passion of the moment.)

In my humble, and not expert, opinion, a 3 point is vastly superior to both a 2 point and a 4 point. Let’s face it, millions of us go out and crash every day with the 3 points on and there don’t seem to be an unreasonable amount of us signing up for a permanent stay at the “underground condo.” You can rest assured if there were an unreasonable amount of us dying or getting unwanted FORD trademarks imprinted on our faces, the ambulance chasers would be out in force with Ralph Nader banning automobiles. Heck, if they got their way we’d all have to run around in F1 suits/helmets and have inner-tubes strapped to all of our bumpers. I think you get the point so I will quit rambling.

As for the threaded insert suggestion, (I realize it wasn’t by you blackjack), I have never heard of anything so dumb in all my life. Sounds like a candidate for the Darwin awards. Maybe those same people go to the do-it-yourself vasectomy classes so they can’t reproduce.

Roll bars are usually a great place to mount the seat-belts. I say usually because I would not want to mount my seat belt to a roll bar designed by those who attended those money saving classes previously mentioned. You will have to look at your specific situation and decide for yourself if it is safe or not. I don’t think anyone here can do that for you as we can’t see the car and evaluate the issue.

I will tell you what we do. The shoulder harnesses are mounted to a cross brace in the roll bar. The lap belts are mounted into specially welded brackets in the frame just like the original car. The neuter straps are bolted to the seat mounting plates which are also welded to the frame.

As for mounting a 3 point system, I understand it is a great system. I am just not sure how you would mount it in your car. Whatever you mount it to, obviously needs to be strong. Many times stronger than you think it needs to be. Remember all of that discussion on g loading? The forces can truly be incredible.

As always, gentlemen, I am open to all of your discussion and opinions. I certainly may be wrong in my opinions and am always looking for more and better knowledge on this (and all) subjects.

Happy Motoring!

David Kirkham, President
Kirkham Motorsports

p.s. TURK!

The super glue idea is great! Spreads the load over the entire body, avoids unwanted amputations, no spinal compression injuries and best of all, it is cheap. Looks like it covers the entire spectrum. Are your engineers available for consultation? What is your rate?

[David Kirkham]

Blackjack,

When I read your post I thought of a story I heard of President Lincoln. My memory of all of the details is sketchy but the main point I have never forgotten.

Seems like he was really mad at a general on one occasion and so he wrote him a particularly scathing letter.

The letter was written because the general did not pursue a retreating Confederate army after a battle the South had lost. It was Lincoln’s assertion he should have pursued them and destroyed what was remaining of the army and the war would have been over. As it was, the Confederates escaped and were able to regroup and wage war for another couple of years.

In the letter, President Lincoln went on as to how the General was inept and had cost the lives of many men by prolonging the war. I think he ever asked for his resignation.

Of course, Lincoln was not known for "flaming" anyone so this may come as a surprise to most people that he ever addressed anyone is such harsh tones.

The only reason we know about the letter today is because it was found in his desk after his assassination. You see, he wrote the letter, thought better of it---and most importantly--never sent it.

If I have offended you with something I have written, I am truly sorry. I did not mean to offend. I am by no means an expert on the subject or any other for that matter. Most of you out there know far more about cars than I will ever know. I just enjoy talking with you all and sharing what small information and experience we have so we can all get smarter and not kill ourselves or our customers.

Have a great day and Happy Motoring!

David Kirkham, President
Kirkham Motorsports

p.s. As for Turk’s comments, I have forwarded them to a neighbor of mine who is a physician in the state mental hospital. They have never seen a case anything like this before and are trying to figure out how to get him in for research...

DAVID,

THANK YOU FOR YOUR KIND NOTE.

I DID NOT DIRECT MY COMMENTS TOWARD YOU. I WAS DEEPLY DISTURBED BY THE DIRECTION THAT THIS THREAD WAS TAKING.

I'VE SEEN A LOT OF "DUMB" QUESTIONS ON THIS FORUM. MANY OF THEM FROM ME. I HAVE ALWAYS FELT THAT I, OR ANYONE ELSE, COULD GET A FAIR , HONEST AND POLITE RESPONSE. THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE.

THE GUYS ON CC HAVE ALWAYS AMAZED ME WITH THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND HELPFULL - FRIENDLY ATTITUDE. I WOULD SURE HATE TO SEE THIS DIMINISHED. THE THREAD WAS DETERIORATING INTO A "PEEING" CONTEST AND I FELT THAT I WAS BEING CHALLENGED TO JUMP IN. MY REMARKS WERE DIRECTED TOWARD MYSELF AS MUCH AS ANYONE ELSE FOR THE POST THAT I DIDN'T "POST".

WE ALL LOVE OUR CARS - MAYBE FOR DIFFERENT REASONS. PATIENCE AND TOLERANCE ARE ALWAYS APPRECIATED FROM THE AUTO "PROS" BY US AMATEURS WHO'S PROFESSIONALISM AND EXPERTISE MAY BE EQUALLY HIGH BUT IN A DIFFERENT AREA.

DAVID, PLEASE BE ASSURED THAT NO OFFENCE WAS TAKEN AND CERTAINLY NONE WAS INTENDED.

HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY,

BLACKJACK

[David Kirkham]

Blackjack,

Thank you for your kind words. I am glad didn't offend you. To anyone one I may have offended, I am sorry. Sometimes I just get over-zealous. E-mail me if there is a problem and I will do my best to correct it.

David

[David Kirkham]

Oh yea,

The ONLY dumb question is the one which isn't asked.

We have been helped enormously by many people in this industry. We asked a lot of dumb questions over the years. It’s the only way we have been able to build a car.

We have found those at the top of the industry are more than willing to help out. We certainly asked a lot of dumb questions to Dave Dralle and he was willing to “baby sit” us for a long time. Mike McCluskey, and Lynn Park did the same. We owe a lot to them.

Dumb questions are only thought of as dumb by those who do not want to answer them. You probably do not want to know their opinion anyway.

BTW, the only thing that happens in a peeing contest is everyone gets wet and the whole place stinks. Perhaps more of us should take a lesson from Blackjack and Lincoln and put those “letters” in a drawer and not take them out. Too many other cool things to talk about.

Happy Motoring!

David Kirkham

[Raceman]

Recently I visited Shelby American Inc. and noticed that there were a few of his Shelbys outfited with the shoulder harneses mounted to the rollbar. This is diffently higher than the shoulder. You think Shelby knows what he is doing. After seeing these, I ordered one of these rollbar mounts for my self, hope I am not makin a mistake.

[Richard Hudgins]

Raceman,

You are certainly not making a mistake by using the roll bar mounted shoulder belts.

Just make sure that they are not mounted above 10 degrees to your shoulder line.

I recommend that you go to
http://www.sfifoundation.com/seatbelt.html
for direction as to installation.

Regards,

Richard Hudgins

http;//www.jblmotor.com

[simonjrwinter]

Just of a matter of interest, over here in the UK, our SVA test (all kit built cars have to pass) ststes that ANY upper seat belt mounting point Has to be a MINIMUM of 510mm above the seat cushion. This kind of takes away any discussion we had about mountings!

[Slow Dawg]

Boy, Kim! You really opened up a can of worms! Next time, call or e-mail Bryan. Or, e-mail me. I'll send pictures on how I install 5 points. Shhh, don't tell anybody, but for some strange reason, I spend a lot of time at B&B.

Ron

[Kim Pallister]

Well, it was a 3point I was interested in installing. Looks like it depends on what the angle is, which will likely be too steep without a rollbar to attach it to.

I might be able to do it if I (a) drop the seat a little lower (which I can do) and (b) have the shoulder strap going over the right sholder rather than left, since the body's a little higher there. Not sure what the frame looks like behind it, but I may need to bolt/weld something on back there to raise it up. Not sure how weird that would be, having it over the left shoulder, or if there's a reason not to do it.

[Jim Maxwell]

David, where do you mount your submarine belt? Does it run through a slit in the seat or around the fromnt of the seat. If you use a six point, where do the belts mount? Thanks! Jim Maxwell

[David Kirkham]

Jim,

We run the crotch belt in front of the seat. We think that is the best way to preserve the originality of the car.

The lap belts are in the standard location and the shoulder straps are (now, thanks to this discussion) mounted to a welded-in bar in the roll bar. This discussion has certainly made us think much more carefully about the entire issue. Thank you all for your ideas!

David Kirkham, President
Kirkham Motorsports