Oil Viscosity? What's Best - Page 5

Mr.Fixit · #81 (**permalink**) 10-29-2002, 03:04 PM

Jerry,
Why don't you just start the syntec debate. Here's a guess that should get somebody to say something: Syntec is just mineral oil made from a base stock which contains a slightly more isolated group of hydrocarbons, instead of a true synthetic which is creating specific hydrocarbons from smaller molecules. So syntec isn't synthetic at all, just a slightly better refined base stock mineral oil. There's my best guess, now here's the ball....

webebob · #82 (**permalink**) 10-29-2002, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lubrecon
Bob:

Went to the FAA site and searched for the May Alert AC 43-16. Could find nothing for May 1996, and nothing on Mobil and the oil problems your are talking about. Might you have the wrong Alert number? Also went to a Mobil Products book, and they have 3 synthetic oils offered to the aviation industry, all are for turbine, or jet engines. The recip engine oils are all mineral, called the Mobil Aero oils, Numbered Series and Banded Series. Two types, a straight mineral oil and an ashless dispersant oil. Both have military approval.

Are you sure the Mobil problem oil was a synthetic for aircraft recip engines?

Jerry

YES -it was their attempt at synthetics for the brutal use of aircraft engines. These engines have got it bad. Real bad.

You are the oil expert. I am not. I just recognize things that make me moan. And most of this topic has.

Regarding the Mobil Synthetic AV-1, I'm not going to go dig through 10 years of papers and send you copies of everthing the courts and FAA have had to say about it.

Your right about one thing, Mobil is not currently producing synthetic oil for aviation. For guys who pay $8 a quart anyway and will easily buy the best there is. Mobil mineral oil is all there is. Their synthetic isn't good enough to risk your life in an airplane, but in a car it is the best there is? Maybe so, but Hmmmmmm.

Since I know you prefer a web site as an authority over personal experiance, I did a google search on mobil AV-1 and here are some links you can read.

Rest assured, you won't be reading this stuff on the company web site!

www.avweb.com/articles/av1suit.html

www.avweb.com/other/av1notic.html

http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache...hl=en&ie=UTF-8

www.avweb.com/articles/av1kerr.html

www.eaa49.av.org/techart/mobil01.htm

I don't care if you believe me or not. But I hope that some people reading this will see that an oil selection is not cut-and-dry.

I'm not brand loyal and am not qualified to give recommendations, but I'll tell you what I run and you can get an idea of what I believe.

Normal driving - I use generic $0.89 oil that meets the latest codes for new cars. Never racing oil because of the potential of high oil related deposits.

For racing - Mineral Racing oil - such as Valvoline Racing 20w50 - lots of zinc to aid in the brief periods of no oil in long corners and such.

Winter with little use - oil with high anti-corrosives such as a diesel oil - like shell Rotella T 15w40. Sitting is extremely hard on internals as all the shinny metal starts to rust.

Now does anyone seriously know of one oil that does all this?

Bob

Mr.Fixit · #83 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 12:32 PM

The response from REDLINE oil's tech support:

We don't recommend seating the rings with the Red Line oils as they
can impede the seating process. Some synthetics and petroleums don't
seem to have the same issues. I would just recommend seating the
rings with a petroleum oil and then switch over to the Red Line, if
you are breaking it in on the track rather than the dyno.

In the past it was thought that a non-detergent oil would allow the
rings to seat little quicker than a detergent petroleum oil. I am not
sure how much difference the non-detergent oil makes with most ring
material and suitable cylinder wall preparation. At this point a
non-detergent petroleum oil is going to be fairly difficult to find.

Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil

Back in Black · #84 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 02:25 PM

Was that poor, ignorant hillbilly.. "Back in Black" right all along about break in oil?

Mr.Fixit · #85 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 03:23 PM

Could be, what happened to Lubrecon?

Perhaps a brand new, not yet broken in motor, has certain operating conditions and phenomena that are unlike regular operating conditions. Because of this initial set of circumstances, what the motor needs during break in may differ from what it wants for the next 100,000 miles. That would bring in conditions other than just fluid dynamics and lubrication chemistry. I don't know for sure, but I do know what has worked for me, all of my motors, and the all motors built over the decades by the guys who taught me what I know. Perhaps there is some superstition mixed in, some wrong explanations for the "why" aspects of some recommendations, and even some old wives tales.

niles · #86 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 03:46 PM

Lubrecon and pete para:

thanks for the your answers/opinions.

Lubrecon: Would appreciate a comment on the following: I read all the referrenced reports and data on various oil brands and I was a little suprised. There are dino oils that rate as high as
Mobile 1, and to my eye syntec was equal or superior to Mobile 1. One thing I noticed was the Mobile on had no zinc is it. As the zinc additive is the EP component and oil without it would not be as good on startup and etc where you can have metal to metal inititial motion. The lack of zinc would tend to steer me away from Mobile one. All the other high quality synthetics such as Syntec, Amsoil, spectrum all have near 1% zinc additives. Any comments would be appreciated

gn

Lubrecon · #87 (**permalink**) 10-30-2002, 07:12 PM

Niles:

All of the oils that you have mentioned have ZDDP as the antiwear component. Anyway, it is actually the phosphorus that provides the antiwear protection, and that is now limited by the ILSAC GF-3 or API SL classification to .10%, again to try and mitigate the catalyst fouling due to the phos. There are other antiwear additives such as phenols and amines, but they are not generally used in engine oil formulations. Mobil 1 has ZDDP just like any other engine oil. ILSAC is trying to get that limit reduced to .05% for the coming GF-4 spec, but the oil companies are screaming blood murder because, if successful, the GF-4 oils will probably not be backward compatible with previous engines.

Non API qualified oils, such a motorcycle oil, Mobil 1 has one, has more antiwear, but they are getting almost $8.00 a quart for them. Same goes for the mineral MC oils, don't know the cost, but more than the regular engine oils I am sure. But still it has more ZDDP because it does not have the API license.

Syntec is made with Group III basestocks, that are hydrocracked to saturate the aromatics and produce what you see called, pure base oils, I think Pennzoil used that name and so does Petro Canada. They are close to PAO's, Group IV's, with respect to viscosity index, sulphur content, and saturates, pour points, etc., but the PAO's still out perform them. No oil with the SL classification or an SJ classification will have 1% zinc. That would be 10,000 ppm, and most run around 1,000-1,300 ppm zinc and a max of 1,000 ppm of phos by specification requirement that I mentioned. They can be called synthetic also because of an adminstrative decision about the definition of synthetics by the NAD of the BBB. No one won the contest, too bad... Mr. Fixit, I was counting on you.

BinB, your are right, your vast experience in lubrication trumps my 35 years hands down, I yield to your superior knowledge and intellect.

Jerry

Mr.Fixit · #88 (**permalink**) 10-31-2002, 04:27 PM

Lubrecon,

With the upcoming change to a low ZDDP oils, will they still continue to market the old stuff, or will the new formulas replace the current oil with the ZDDP? Since it seems like when they "improve" their oil, the old formula goes by the wayside. I could always buy the really good stuff, but I lke spending a dollar a quart for my daily driver. Now that this thread has died, we'll have to find something else to argue about, my favorite pastime.

Back in Black · #89 (**permalink**) 10-31-2002, 05:46 PM

But when someone makes a here-to-fore unheard claim with ZERO supporting technical evidence, and pats me on the head, I instantly shift into my *It's BS* mode......

I have a science degree, an analytical mind, and demand evidence before altering what I consider to be sage and proven wisdom...have seen none yet.

Lubrecon · #90 (**permalink**) 10-31-2002, 07:43 PM

Mr. Fixit:

Usually, the new oil classification is backward compatible with all previous engines and the new formulations are the only ones on the shelves. However, if the GF-4 spec mandates a .05% phos, then it will not be sufficient to protect older engines(wear), only the new engines that are built to run on that level of phos. If that is so, then the old formulations would have to be offered along with the new one. But the oil industry sees many problems with that. For one thing offering both new and old formulations would be very expensive from a marketing stand point. And what if the consumer puts the wrong oil in the older engine and gets premature wear? Who will be liable for the damage? Resellers would have to have additional shelf space and quick outlets would have to have additional bulk storage. Distributors would have to have more tankage, and on and on.

It is up in the air, the the GF-4 spec has been delayed for a year at least. In fact, the auto manufacturers will have the engines out probably before the oils are ready for commercialization. It's a difficult problem to solve, so stay tuned. Anyway, it is not driven by getting to a better oil. It is driven by emissions and catalyst fouling, damn the engine!!

BinB, I don't take offense, but if you really want proof of synthetics and break in potential, look to GM, Chrysler, Porsche, and Mercedes. Do you really think that they would risk their premier auto line, Corvette, Viper, and the others by approving Mobil 1 as the initial fill if they were not sure it will perform? Think of all of those engines that are in those cars. Anyway, I am not asking you to alter anything you do, I am just pointing out things that some accept as fact because that is the way we have always done it. I remember when the "old timers" said that detergent/dispersant oils should not be used in engines. Times change, but old habits are hard to break. I am sure your 514 will last forever no matter waht type of oil is used to "break it in".

Lubrecon · #91 (**permalink**) 10-31-2002, 07:53 PM

On another note, I just learned something very interesting today with respect to the level of anitwear, ZDDP in current formulations. If the oil is licensed first as a C(Compression ignited) or diesel, and then gets the S(Spark ignited) gasoline, approval, the .10% phos requirement is wavied. That means that you could use this formulation in your gasoline engine and get the higher level antiwear. Most of the oil company guys are using the C qualified oils in their cars for that very reason. And don't listen to the ash arguement, it has no merit.

BinB, you might want to go that way on your engine.

I am rethinking my Mobil 1 in my 408, but would still use a 15W-40. Comments??

Cobranut · #92 (**permalink**) 10-31-2002, 09:07 PM

This is an interesting thread, and we seem to have a couple of very knowledgable oil guys here.

I've been running Mobil 1 for years now in virtually every 4-stroke engine I own, even my lawn mower and the diesel in my tractor.

I run 10w30 in my Explorer, with over 200,000 miles. (It still uses less than 1 pint in 5000 miles.)

I use 15w50 in the Cobra, as it doesn't get run in cold weather, and it has a pre-luber.

By far the toughest on oil is my Legends car. Races run 30-40 miles, nearly 10,000 rpm, oil temps nearly always over 300*, and occasionally hitting 340* (And I have one of the cooler-running setups).
I run the same Mobil 1 in there, but I change oil each race weekend, and I add 2 ounces of GM EOS to the 5 qt capacity.
I suspect the EOS is high in zinc, which should help prevent galling of the cam lobes, which, being right up there on top of the air-cooled head, run at God-knows-what temperature.
So far I havn't seen any signs of galling, and my valve clearance has remained constant, so it must be working.

Please feel free to comment on my experiences.

Later,

P.S. Jerry,
Mobil 1 is C rated for diesels, so it would be exempt from the new restriction.

That rating is what allows me to run it in the tractor.
(I run Rotella-T in the Ford Powerstroke, as it requires a CH-4 rating due to the electro-hydraulic direct-injection system.)

cobralee · #93 (**permalink**) 10-31-2002, 10:49 PM

On my 427to, I use Kendall 20-50. Seems to work well. I also use Fram HP6 which I like as well.

Ron

Lubrecon · #94 (**permalink**) 11-01-2002, 06:03 AM

David:

Mobil 1 does have a C license, but it is CF, which is 3 approvals back of the current CI formulation. Additionally, the order of the license is important. You will note that the SL, SJ appears first, meaning the oil has qualified under that license, meeting all the requirements thereof. That means it will have to meet the .10% phos requirement(GF-2). However, it still meets the requirement of the CF license. Don't read into this that it cannot pass or meet the current CI license. Sometimes the oil companies do not get the current C license(or vice versa) because of the added expense of getting the diesel license, because they know the oil will primarily be used in gasoline engines. There is no problem with Mobil 1, I use it in everything also, I just thought it was an interesting fact for everyone to know.

There is also a Delvac 1, and I will check its API approvals to see what it carries.

I will try to see if the SL Mobil 1 could qualify under the CI license and post here.

Jerry

Cobranut · #95 (**permalink**) 11-06-2002, 12:34 AM

Jerry

The Mobil Delvac 1 does meet the CH-4 rating, but it is nearly impossible to find around here, and the only place I found that stocked it, wanted over $20.00/gal.
That's getting close to $100.00 per oil/filter change.
I can't justify that when I know of Powerstrokes with over 500K miles running Rotella-T at $6.00/gal.

Several months ago I bought the entire stock of Mobil-1 5-qt. jugs at Wal-Mart. This was before the change to "SuperSyn".

Was this the change to the .1% Phos. content?
I hope not, as I'll go buy them out again to get the current formulation.

Thanks,

Satanpez · #96 (**permalink**) 11-06-2002, 05:38 AM

The powerstroke uses 5 gallons of oil?

-steve in nj-

Lubrecon · #97 (**permalink**) 11-06-2002, 09:13 AM

Another interesting fact. When an oil qualifies under, or gets an API C license(diesel), and then subsequently gets an SL license(gasoline), the phos limit of .10% for the SL license is waived. I think there is also a viscosity limit on the phos requirement in SL oils, but I don't have that answer as yet.

David:

The Delvac 1 oil now has the CI license as of September 1, and probably has an SL license also, but I haven't seen it. It is more expensive than Mobil 1, but $5.00/qt sounds high, but I don't remember what I paid for it last time. Rotella T is a very good oil and will give you excellent service. The .10% max phos level in the S oils begain with the SJ license and is carried thru to the current SL formulation. However, I believe that the phos limit only applies to oils with the "Starburst" certification mark and that is associated with 0W-XX, 5W-XX, and 10W-XX cross graded oils where the XX does not exceed an SAE 30 viscosity.

Jerry

Cobranut · #98 (**permalink**) 11-06-2002, 05:26 PM

Jerry,

Thanks for the info. You may be correct about the phos limit applying only to the lighter weight oils.

I went to Mobil's website and they make a definate distinction for the 15w50 weight. They refer to it as their "Performance Driving Formula" and state that it "Contains additional wear protection required for racing type engines."
I suspect (and hope) that this may be the higher phos. content.

Steve,

Actually, the PSD holds 15 quarts, and usually needs 1 quart added at about 3-4K miles when used for heavy towing. (Which is what we bought it for anyway). Plus, the filter is about $9.00.
So an oil change with Delvac-1 would be over $90.00, versus $33.00 using Rotella.

Later,

ebustin · #99 (**permalink**) 11-08-2002, 12:54 AM

THIS HAS BEEN the greatest post. Don't stop here, lets get into trans and third members. Whats needed here is blow-by numbers using different oils. I know from dyno work that syn. oil is a great oil to use only after the rings have been seated. This is only if you want top performance the first time you run your car. For a street driver go direct to syn oil. Get the longivvvvity out of your car.

JPguru3 · #**100** (**permalink**) 03-31-2006, 10:25 PM

Stick with 10w-30 Synthetic Oil because it flows muck better than 20w50...

your actually generating more heat with the higher viscocity....