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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2002, 09:35 PM
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Default Royal purple makes non-detergent...

Because for short term track use the non-detergent allows the inclusion (in in it's place) of anti-scuffing and other additives. It is not meant for street use.

The point is that synthetic lubricates so well, that it slows down the ring seating and therefore extends the friction condition in the motor, which is unacceptable..

Many factory motors are indeed broken in (for a short time) before they are sent out...the Ford SVO bracket race motors such as my 514 are one example...they are hot run for 20 minutes....

Please provide links to your proof...or no one is going to believe you, Lubrecon.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2002, 10:01 PM
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Default Wow

Lubrecom, I am impressed. A lot of good information from someone that definitely is in the field and knows his stuff. Thanks for reassuring my believe. I have an older 302 (from a ’69 Boss) with 351W heads and a 303 Motorsport cam, TRW heads and yes, Titanium valves. I run Mobil 1 15W50 in the summer and 5W30 in the winter.


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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2002, 08:05 AM
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It has been two years since I bought any, but I did get non-detergent valvolene (or was it castrol?) 30w since the turn of the last century. The guy at the parts store didn't think he could get any either, but two days later I had a case. Used the whole case in the first two oil fill ups. Motor ran real nice, didn't get screwed up at all. Bearings looked great, cam still had it's lobes, no problems. I removed the motor during the car's paint and cosmetic restoration, took it apart to freshen it up while it was out. Maybe I got lucky, but it's a 60's motor and I followed the 60's recommendations, even filled the lifters with chevy's EOS and poured the rest of the bottle over the valvetrain as per the manual (it is a BB chevy motor).

Lubrecon, you seem knowledgeable about oils, what is it abut the non-detergent oil that will screw up a motor "big time"
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2002, 01:36 PM
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Just checked, valvoline and castrol both still sell non-detergent oil in 30w. Your regular retailer should be able to get it for you. Whether or not you should put such oil in your engine is still open to debate, "not recommended for modern engines" it says on the materials sheet
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2002, 02:47 PM
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Mr. Back in Black: If you want to make a couple of turns around the track, or a couple of runs on the drag strip, use non-detergent oil to your hearts desire. Many racers do and then tear down the engineand rebuild it. They are looking for viscosity, which is the most imporant aspect of any oil not oil performance. But you, I, and many others on this board do more than just race with our cars and our engines. Without a modern additive package that includes many things, the non-detergent oil will oxidize rapidly, sludge up, and the wear rate will skyrocket as compared to an API SL oil. Ask the oil companies about non-detergent engine oils and see what they say. Get on the web for your proof, or choose not to believe me, it is your choice. Your crate engine or bracket engine may have been run for 20 minutes, but if you think the auto companies do, think again. Anyway are you telling me that 20 minutes will break an engine in? Some engines are test run to look for any immediate problems, not to break them in. Rings still seat with Mobil 1 or any other PAO, they are not too slippery, ask GM, Chrylser, or Porsche, or Mercedes. They are the premier engine oils of today.

Mr. Fixit: Valvoline and Castrol may still have a ND in their line, but can you find me someone who uses it their Cobra, or any other car other than a fogger? Anyway, why would you? Why do you think the API, SAE, ASTM, and ILSAC continue to improve the engine oil specs? And why are those backward compatible? They only improve the older engines operating capabilities and longetivity.

I am not trying to start an arguement, I am trying to help you guys make an intelligent engine oil choice for your $5,000-$10,000 engine. Why would you not spend $20-$30 bucks for an oil that is the very best if you just spect $40,000 on a car with an HP engine? Where is the logic??

Ok, pile it on, I am ready.!!
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2002, 04:19 PM
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Lubrecon,
I have a genuine question regarding synthetics and roller lifters.
I race dirt Late Models and we run roller cams with .700+ lift and very high spring pressure turning 8-9000 rpm. The trend recently has been to run synthetics since is seems to increase HP by about 2%. Around the same time we switched to synthetics, engine builders began noticing unusual wear on the cam lobe; the surface of the cam appears to flake off. The theory given is that, because the oil is so slippery the lifter is not able to roll, but instead slides, causing the wear. The only constant among many engine builders seems to be the oil. Have you heard of this? Thoughts?

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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2002, 04:27 PM
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Remember, motor oil has three jobs - lubrication, cooling and bulking-up the valve train. Once those little holes in the hydraulic lifters get clogged it's over. Good luck using the non-detergent oil!

Bob
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2002, 05:39 PM
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Default Still have seen no proof...

That I should use synthetic oil to break in my motor...have heard exactly the opposite from every other source.... I am still with Mr. Fixit on this...I have nothing to lose by breaking it in with a 20/50 Castrol or similar oil...then switching to a synthetic.

Prove to me otherwise and I will certainly consider it.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2002, 05:42 PM
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The reason told to me for why you want non-detergent oil, by one of the old time engine builders who got me started in engines, was that the detergent oil would pick up all the "junk" in your motor left there from the build, and suspend it in the oil, then circulate that crud through the motor. That lint, assembly lube, dust, etc, could then have the opportunity to clog the filter, then the oil would get forced through the bypass, unfiltered. Better to run the non-detergent oil initially, it wasn't as good at picking up the "junk" so the oil filter wouldn't bet clogged before you get the cam broken in, when you should change the oil anyway, and repeat the process. Better to catch some of the junk in the first filter, some in the second filter, than to get it all into the first filter and clog it up. That was many years ago, the old timer is long dead, but what he told me has stayed. Due to the non-detergent oil being a special order item, the shop I worked in never suscribed to that practice, just use the same valvoline oil as always for new motors. I did do it on my own motor though, and no noticable negative effects were seen.

quote lubricon:
You may be able to buy a non-detergent motor oil from some backyard blender, but not from ANY major supplier of engine oils today. The spec has been obsolete for years and you should never use a non-derterget oil and any engine for any reason other than to screw it up big time. That includes "break in" or whatever.

Now we know that you can get it from valvoline and castrol. But how will it "screw up a motor big time"?
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2002, 08:43 PM
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I'd be interested in the non-detergent "screwed-up motor syndrom" too. Like Mr. Fixit, I've been using it for many years in high performance engines. Just for grins.....how many of you use Kendall GT-1? I do, and it's a non-detergent racing oil. It was the recommended oil by my builder who also builds NASCAR and Winston Cup engines.....none of which ever see a detergent oil!!! I'm not sure about this and feel free to correct me, but I don't think any oil specified as racing oil is a detergent oil....at least none I ever used was.

On the viscosity, again at my builder's recommendation, I use Kendall GT-1 20w-50 year around. Acts like 50w when the engine is hot and like 20w when it's cold. That's what multi-vis oils are supposed to do.....or so I'm told and it works well for me and a lot of other folks with trick engines.

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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2002, 09:15 PM
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Scottj: The cam problem sounds like a surface hardness problem, not a sliding roller problem. If the roller is sliding, you should see a flat or worn area on the roller. The Mobil 1 will not cause a roller lifter to slide on the cam lobe.

Back in Black: I am just making all of this up, your right, you got me..exposed, the great Mobil 1 hoax.

Mr. Fixit; Now let me get this straight. You would rather have all of that crap in your engine, circulating with the oil, on the cam and lifters, on the cylinder walls and between the rings and cylinders, and in the bearings as you break the engine in rather than in the filter, removed from the oil, because you don't want the filter to plug up??? You would rather have all of that crap settle out in your crankcase, in the valve deak area and other places because you don't want the filter to plug up?? Did I miss something here?? How about this, if the filter plugs up, you will have all of that crap circulating around your engine like you want. Wow, the best of both worlds, deterget oils and plugged filters that won't filter because they are doing their job. Talk about convoluted logic!

Non-detergent oils will break down quickly from heat(oxidation) and lay down varnish and lacqure(sp) on pistons and rings causing the rings to stick. Without dispersants, combustion materials and degradation products will drop out in all parts of the engine, crankcase and valve deck. Without any antiwear, rapid cam and lifter wear will occur and ring and cylinder wear will increase significantly. Hydraulic lifters will plug, valve deposits will rapidly appear and valves will stick in the guides due the oil's thermal degradation. Without detergents, the deposits and other degradation materials cannot be cleaned from the engine..why are we having this discussion?

Mr. Fixit, call Castrol and ask them what engines they recommend the use of their non-detergent oil in. For that matter call Ford, GM, and the others and ask that question..what would I know, I am trying to trick Back in Black into using Mobil 1.

It looks like the old saying, "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is alive and well.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2002, 09:46 PM
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A Snake: You had better take a look at the Kendell GT-1 bottle again. It is an API SL quality oil, and if that's a non-detergent, I'll drink a case of it. Back in Black is always asking for proof of everything, so if you want some, go to the Kendall web site and read up!
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2002, 08:52 AM
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Lubrecon, like you I have a background in lubricants. Thanks for being here, but don't take the beatings to heart, they're only tiresome. That's why I usually choose not to get involved with the perpetuation of wives tales.

Fixit, Lubrecon will probably answer you himself, but the "screw up big time" answer is weaved within his previous posts. The biggest potential victim of ND oil is the cam shaft because of the lack of ZDDP (zincdialkyldithiophosphate if you ever see it). You probably do a good job of slathering the cam with "cam lube" so that likely has added enough anti-wear to the oil to continue protecting the cam in the short run. EMPHASIS on the short run. As for the idea of not wanting "junk" suspended in the oil, why not? That's the point of the filter, get that stuff out of the engine. That's why a very short interval on the first lube charge is essential. The detergent/dispersant only holds the "microscopic" sized particles anyway. The rest that might travel with the oil are going to do so by virtue of the fluid movement, which you get from the ND oil also. All in all, non-detergent oil is 1920's tech. Like your old mentor, it's time has passed.

Asnake. Not sure where your builder got the NASCAR/non-detergent notion, it's bull. The Union 76 20w-50 you can buy at GI Joe's is EXACTLY the same stuff the good ol' boys use, and I know that for a fact. The other brands out there have a similar experience. As an aside there is no 50w, the w only goes with the first number in the multi-grade nomemclature as that is the low temperature grading indicator. The confusion occurs because a lot of folks think the w stands for weight, but it really stands for winter.

Scottj, have the guys check the spec sheets on the oil. My guess would be that the viscosity is too light, the "synthetic" base stock is not of a shear stable variety (?), or the ZDDP level is lower and not affording enough protection for high pressure loads.
The increase in measurable hp (BTW thanks for varifying it's a modest number) is a result of the lower viscosity meaning less parasitic drag.

Hang in Lubrecon!

PS; Lubrecon looks like you were responding while I was. Good answers. Don't worry about BinB, he thinks I'm an idiot because my truck has stripes and my replica doesn't. Oil guys don't know *hit!
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2002, 09:30 AM
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Bob or Lubrecon, just out of curiosity:

If one was to mix 5w30 and 10w30, do you end up with 7w30 or so? Or just end up as some weird incalculable weight?

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Old 10-26-2002, 10:25 AM
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Steve,

It would most certainly be measurable, albeit not worth the cost or effort. Viscosity grades run in defined ranges based, for sake of clarity in this context, on rate of flow at a specified temperature. Depending on what base oil and what additives are used your concoction probably will fall toward the high end of the 5w range or the low end of the 10w range. Depending on which, it would be identified as what it measures too.

For added clarity, the test criteria for measuring viscosity are strictly defined methods and perameters defined by the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) and utilized by the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE).
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2002, 11:08 AM
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Lubrecon - By in large you And I aggree on most stuff as I too am BIG on synthetics. I still disagree on the motor start up procedure though on so called iron built engines. Let me give you a example. A deep crosshatch pattern honing of cylinder walls(used on iron rings) actually traps oil on the breakin in the grooves well into the firing stroke. Viscosity has nothing to do with it. Mineral based oils have a higher carbon content due to higher carbon based impuritys that synthetics does. That traped oil burns on the power stroke and leaves residues that temper the cylinder walls amoun'st other things. Synthetics don't do this. There is more, MUCH MORE!
Point is I'm trying to say is this- Synthetics are not the magic cure all bullet you are trying(I am reading anyhow) to portray them to be. Yes they are better in my mind, but you have to temper that with what you are trying to do. There really is a reason why some of us folks do things differently you know, and I sir don't like the blanket wives tale explaintion used to dismiss all replys.
Take the Zink(abbrev.) issue. When synthitics first came out the word was 25,000k oil changes was the "new" norm. We've came a long way from that logic now haven't we? The new zink formulations are a direct result of manufactures requirements, nothing more. And the manufactures want you to change your the oil now don't they? And by the way, most two cycle engine manufacturers still recommend non detergent mineral based, strait 30 weight oils. Briggs and Stratton comes to mind first.
Wonder what will happen when the oil manufacturers wake up to Moly? It really is much more to it than a funny can of additives that you just throw into your oil.
I, unlike some out there understand what you said in your reply.
A one size fits all reply does not work with me. I welcome change, but temper change with a background measured in past experience. I still disagree with you, on this VERY complex issue. I welcome your reply.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2002, 12:17 PM
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Default Still seen NO proof...

That I should not use a standard multi vis for the break-in....was even told this by the Ford tech I spoke to on the phone...NO synthetic until it's broken in.

I am not going to use non-detergent except as an additive possibly...but I am not going to use synthetic to break in a motor..and have seen ZERO proof presented here so far that it's safe, just innuendo and a few pointless insults
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Old 10-26-2002, 12:44 PM
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Boy, give myself a break from the remodel project and I can't help but get involved (or in trouble).

Ron,

I'm sure Lubrecon will deal with your personal comments, but I'd like to deal with the overall concepts, and some of your general statements in particular, from my experience. Please note, this is not a flame job on you. Only my additions and what, to some, might seem like nit picking. Unfortunately, wives tales sprout from nits.

To frame my responses, I'm not a big proponent of synthetics. This is not because I am biased against them, but precisely because of what you said. Too many people look at them as "miracle in a can". Synthetics in the correct application have definite advantages. But just because they solve certain "high stress" applications, doesn't mean they are a cure all for less stressfull situations. Sort of a variation on the "more is better" theory.

Now for a nit. Your statement about carbon burning as a result of the combustion process is generally accurate. I take issue with your referring to it as a "contaminant". Almost all mineral oils are hydrocarbons (chemically speaking), as are gasoline, diesel fuel, and natural gas. Carbon is what they are, so, by definition, it is not a contaminant. It's in there, we have to deal with it (e.g. detergent/dispersants). For that matter, the proponderance of sythetics (the name meaning synthesized from something else) are hydrocarbon based. So you're not eliminating carbon, it's just been somewhat more stableized.

Part of my resistance to the synthetic mantra stems from the example you gave about the 25k oil change. I'm not clear what your meaning was in bringing up zinc, but that has virtually nothing to do with synthetic oil function. The additive packages for mineral and synthetic oils are very similar. The long drain interval came about from the way that early synthetics were marketed. The implication was that since synthetics were so chemically superior to those wretched old mineral oils you could leave them in a lot longer because they won't "break down" (a term that has different meaning to nearly every ear it falls upon). I will say it had a lot more to do with cost. When you could buy a mineral oil for $1.00 a qt, and a synthetic for $8.00 a qt, is it any wonder how we get to a 25k interval? Remember, early marketing of synthetics to the general public was done largely through multi level marketing by people who had little to no formal education in lubrication fundamentals. They were well meaning, and bought into the near religious fervor, but largely mis-informed. I could go into a long discussion on drain intervals, but in general it comes down to the oil sump is a septic tank. The more contaminants, the sooner it needs to be changed, and the contaminants don't originate with the oil, it is the carrier (although there are some chemical reaction factors to consider).

Sorry to say, your comment on 2 cycle oils is absolutely wrong.

As for moly, assuming you are referring to molydenumdisulfide as an additive, the oil industry is, and has been, very aware of it for a few decades. Most oil marketers have products in their line that contain it. Most often it's in heavier products, e.g. grease, where it can be kept in suspension so that it can provide what benefit it does. Again, it's PROVEN benefit in crankcase oils is negligible.

I'm sure that in your professional endeavor you hear statements from partially informed people that drive you up a wall. You find it frustrating that they haven't taken the time to learn as much as you have before spouting off an absolute. I don't know about Lubrecon, but that happens to me and it's hard to contain the frustration. In most cases in this forum the incorrect opinions don't much matter, so I just let them take their course. If someone wants to spend way more for something than they really need to, so what, it's their money. But, liking to be accurate, I sometimes get pushed out of shape when someone touts a product that they KNOW gives them more power (or whatever). After all, they just got done running it on the Levi's dyno!!!
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Old 10-26-2002, 12:51 PM
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Welllll, the saying "There ain't no fool, like an old fool" seems to apply to me today. I should have listend more closely to my builder rather than assuming things.

ASSUME broken down makes,"an ASS of U and ME"

A little knowledge IS dangerous. I did as suggested and went back to the Kendall site and guess what I found? Yup! It's detergent alright.
The only thing I can't find an answer for is the difference between SL and SJ. My oil is SJ.

Now to help with a little fuel for the ongoing conflagration (pun intended) Kendall does make a non detergent but........ it's recomended usage is in pre 1964 automobiles, air compressors and other specialized applications specified by manufacturer.

What I think is that when the experts speak we should listen.......with both ears. Who knows, we might actually learn something....

Thanks to Bob Parmenter and Lubrecon for being willing to try helping us in spite of ourselves.

Al
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Old 10-26-2002, 01:55 PM
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Bob - Bob, it's not even considered to be a flame job. Just a neat talk between frends. Some points to wit re; my responses.
First, the word contaminate is indeed a poor term but I didn't know of a simple word to use other than that. Mineral based oils have parafenes(sp), waxes and other trace stuff that decompose on engine firing resulting in carbon base'd contaminates. So in that respect they do add to the septic tank. Synthetics don't have that problem. I.E. - less in the formulation, the less undesirable stuff comes out. Don't forget we are talking about mixing gas and oil together with water vapor and emissions for the whole picture. The point to wit is sometimes some of us use what we know about mineral based oils to our advantage.
Next - My lawn mower has a sticker on it plain as day that says- "Use non-detergent oil only". It's a Briggs engine.
I am big on synthetics, very big- But in all of my readings and experiences no one has shown me anything that proves synthetic use is better for long-givity over mineral based oils, when used as a manufacturer suggests. We can talk back and forth on this a while but by in large we are in agreement on the big stuff. As for the zink additition thing it came out prior to my responses, but I was using it and Moly as examples of additives that go into the formulations, and as such mean to show the complexity of the subject.
I think the synthitics crowd is just as likely to over generalize their cause/useage as the mineral based crowd is likely to over generalize to. NEXT!
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