Octane Additives?

[ROSS WEAVER]

J,
As far as gas stations in Michigan, there are a few that I know of that sell racing fuel. The octane is usually between 108 and 110. I use it in my car because of the 11:1 compression. There is a Citgo on Woodward Ave. in Birmingham, A BP on M-59 in Waterford, and a Citgo on Orchard Lake Road in Keego Harbor.

[Zderf]

Greetings,

I have worked with toluene over the years and have come to respect it like I do my grandmother. It has a very low vapor pressure, and will disperse into the atmosphere in short order when not stored in a sealed container.

I was involved in developing waste heat recovery systems for a major aerospace firm. We used toluene as the working fluid where it would be heated, pressurized, vapored, and then nozzeled across a high speed turbine attached to a generator. We would then re-condense the fluid to start the cycle over again. Its properties are such that there was very little loss of energy in that process.

Toluene is also used on space satellites where it is the working fluid being heated by solar arrays to produce and unending supply of electrical power. In the 80's, that system was known as KIPS (Kilowatt Isotope Power System). Many satellites are still circling with that power system.

All of this was done in the safety of a remote research facility with blast walls and heavy personal protection. I witnessed more than one explosion when toluene vapors escaped thru plumbing leaks only to be ignited by our natural gas burners simulating the waste heat source.

I am talking BIG explosions...

As such, I have two concerns:

1. Fuel systems are vented. Toluene's low vapor pressure will cause it to evaporate at a measurable rate. Its vapors are heavier than air, and will be present anywhere your fuel system is vented.

2. If you think a spark induced petrol fire is something to see, wait till you see toluene go up.

I'm thinking lacquer thinner.

Just a bit info yawl may want to consider before proceeding.

Respectfully,

Zderf

[Tongue Pirate]

You win! I'll stick with the Thinner!!!

[cobrashoch]

I am bringing this thead to the top due to interest in nitromethane additives in fuel and the contents of this thread.

cobrashoch

[Hank Dondero]

What effect, if any, will toluene have on the injectors in an EFI system?

Hank
FFR 1776

[Flyin_Freddie]

Hey, guys...like I said, I'm no chemist, but I play one on TV. I'm all for octane boosters, provided of course they don't do more damage than good. But, I have some concerns....

Toluene is the #1 ingredient in plastic model airplane glue. This stuff actually melts plastic together to form a weld. I would be concerned that any rubber, vinyl, or plastic parts in carbs, fuel filters, etc. would be attacked and eventually destroyed by constant contact with toluene. This is NOT friendly stuff. And as mentioned before, one drop on that beautifully finished Cobra deirrere will destroy the finish - Big Time!

Same goes for lacquer thinner...ever get any on something plastic? It melts into a sticky mess. I can't say what this may do to rubber fuel lines and plastic fuel filters.

Now, to read some of your posts, it doesn't seem to be a problem for your cars now. Like Zderf says, though, this stuff - either one of 'em - is some nasty stuff and pretty much guaranteed to cause and explosion when subjected to an ignition source, no matter how small. Can you say BOOOOM!

Can anyone provide long term evidence this is not damaging their fuel system internals - fuel filters, reinforced rubber fuel lines, carb floats, carb gaskets and seals...? Seems to me we're playing with something that could be like letting the monster out of the cage.

That's just my opinion, of course, I could be wrong.

[Hank Dondero]

Interesting. I wonder what it will do to the plastic liner of the fuel cell? Hmmm......

Hank
FFR 1776

[DAVID GAGNARD]

I agree with all on the potential problems with this stuff. My experience has been strictly with laquer thinner. For fourteen years in a body shop and four years using it in a dirt track car every Saturday nite for six months out of the year and about four or five tank fulls a year in my 65 Mustang.

With my Mustang and the dirt track car we never used more than about 10-15% thinner mixed with the gas. We are very careful with it to start with and with this small amount I think the dangers are quite lessened than using 100% thinner like you would in a body shop or other industrial uses.

In the dirt track car we run a fuel cell and change our foam out every three or four years regardless of what type of fuel we ran. We have had no problems with fuel lines-filters-or the carb what-so-ever running thinner in a 10-15 % mix with 92 octane pump gas. Again this is a low amount and running a higher percentage may or may not give you problems. The same goes for my Mustang.

Now, I will NOT run it in 95 Ford F-150 with EFI. I do not know if it will hurt it or not,but I'm not going to be the test mule on that one,it's just too expensive to find out. I do know most manufacteres DO NOT recommend the use of gasahal,so I would be afraid to use the thinner in any EFI vehicle.

Again, I agree tulene and laquer thinner are dangerous and can be dangerous,but mixed in these small quantities, I think they are realatively safe.

No, I am not a chemist (although I am good freinds with one at EXXON and my uncle is one),I do not play one on TV, nor have I ever slept at a Holiday Inn Express.......

Just my thoughts on this subject---let's be careful when playing with this stuff..

David

HI GUYS,

ONE CONSIDERATION THAT HAS NOT BEEN MENTIONED YET IS THE TOLUENE VAPORS.

I HAVE SOME NEIGHBORS WHO SNIFF THE STUFF FOR "MEDICINAL" PURPOSES AND OTHERS WHO JUST USE IT RECREATIONALY.

I'D HATE TO BE DRIVING THROUGH THE NEIGHBORHOOD WITH MY WHACKEY NEIGHBORS CHASING AFTER ME SNIFFING MY EXHAUST PIPES.

SORRY, I JUST COULDN'T RESIST IT. (ACTUALLY - - I'M THE WHACKEY NEIGHBOR IN THE AREA).

GREAT THREAD - I'M FOLLOWING IT CLOSELY. I REALLY APPRECIATE YOU ALL SHARING YOUR KNOWLEDGE.

THANKS, AND HAVE A REALLY GREAT DAY,

BLACKJACK

[Jeff Frigo]

Just my 2 cents:


Toluene is what the F1 boys used during the turbo days. They would make 1200-1500 HP in qualfying trim with only 90 cubic inches. Obviously the turbos had a lot to do with this, but this could not have been acomplished with gasoline. If I'm not mistaken, they would run mixtures of well over 80%, I think even more.



Jeff

[Jack Zupan]

Just a comment about toluene's volatility. It is quite a bit less volatile than gasoline so I don't think you are looking at any greater vapor hazard with it than with gasoline itself. The boiling point of toluene is nearly twice that of gas so it just shouldn't be a problem.

Also was I missing something in the octane boost web site that 750hp found and posted. There is an octane boost 2 - 3 points at 10 % additive. I guess that doesn't seem like a lot to me. Are you doing much by going from 92 to 94 octane. I think you want to be in the 97-98 range and then the mixtures become pretty expensive.

Finally I thought I read once that acetone is a pretty good octance booster and it's also used in some paint thinners. Anyone else see this anywhere?

Jack Z.

[Flyin_Freddie]

Okay, given all the precautions with volitility and aggressiveness of toluene and xylene, then someone check my math. The website quoted in 750HP's post earlier (http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc/octanebooster.html) states the necessary ratios to mix to achieve specific octane ratings. Using those ratios, here's what I get mixing with 15 gallons of 92 octane pump gas (although I use 93 octane premium).

Mixing with toluene...10% yields 94.2 octane, or 1.5 gallons of toluene; 20% yields 96.4 octane, 3.0 gallons; 30% makes 98.6 octane, add 4.5 gallons.

When mixing with Xylene, again 15 gallons of 92 octane: 10% gets you 94.5, by adding 1.5 gallons, 20% makes 97.0 octane, add 3.0 gallons; and 30% xylene added makes 99.5 octane, by adding 4.5 gallons.

Okay...check my math and let me know if I've made an error. Sounds like I can buy 15 gallons of 93 octane pump gas, add 4.5 gallons of xylene, and wind up with 100.5 octane in the tank. Anyone find fault with my figures...?

[JAM1775]

This thread is very interesting nor could I stop reading the past toulene thread. But if we do not have 11:1 or 12:1 compression, does higher octane really produce more power ?
I run 94 octane Sunoco in my 10:1 351W. I do that despite noting no noticeable performance enhancement running a good 93 octane fuel. I always travel further and reach for the 94 but I cannot tell you why !!!

[Jamo]

Re any additives and fuel cells:

I received a bit of education when my 20 year old fuel cell bladder started chunking apart. The first lesson was that you don't use fuel cells for 20 years! (dah!) The first question the folks at FuelSafe asked was whether I was using any octane boosters since so many of them have a bit of alcohol. They went on to explain the differences in fuel cell construction; how different materials were used for gas and other fuels. It may very well be that the fuel cells used by some of the racers on this thread were constructed with materials that don't break down using thinners, etc. I would strongly suggest that you check to see what your fuel cell bladder is designed for before you start adding anything to your gas, and that you check the ingredients of any additives before you use them. Contact either FuelSafe or ATL if you have any doubts.

Jamo

[dakota]

This is my two cents in responce to JAM1775's post. I was under the understanding, like a lot of people I think, for a long time that that higher octane=more power. I've seen a lot of discussion on this on some other boards that I visit, and this is what I've learned from people who seem to know what they are talking about. The octane rating is only the measure of the fuels resistance to pre-detonation. AND THAT IS IT. You actually will make more power running the LOWEST possible octane that your engine will tolerate without "pinging" on. So in other words if you are spending money on high octane gas or booster to get your octane up to 95 or 100 when your engine runs fine on 91 you are spending extra money for less performance. It must have to do with the way all of those octane boosters and high octane gas are marketed or something because A LOT of people associate high octane with more power.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Dakota-Jam1775;

You both are 100% correct about octane. More is not always better. You should run the lowest that your engine will allow,anymore,you are just burning expensive gas for nothing.

In our dirt track car,the rules stated "pump gas only,no additives". The fuel of the top five cars in the nites feature event was tested for octane rating,93 being the max. allowed. We tested about five or six different "mixtures" of "stuff" till we found one that would pass the test the local track performed. Laquer thinner was one of the three or so additives you could get away with and was the least expensive, that's the only reason we used it. Our car ran 12 to 1 compression and without the additives we had serouis detonation on caution laps and actually broke the top lands off three pistons in three weeks, that's when we started researching additives and began using them. There were a couple of guys selling their own "home brew" additives at the track,all saying how great it was and how it was undetecable. I do not know if their claims were true,but they sold a lot of expensive stuff to a lot of racers.

As for my Mustang, I'm running 10.4 to 1 compression and really have no problems running 93 octane. Anything lower it has a "knock" at slow speeds. Also,in parades when the temp generally runs 200 or so for 30 to 45 minutes,it has a tendancy to "knock" when that hot. Once it is cooled back down to 180 everything is fine. It is only extra insurance in the Mustang, I can not say it improves performance at the drag strip because my times are not that consistant to tell any difference.

David

[jeff_taylor]

Let me throw in 2 cents worth to this interesting discussion. I have a good friend that raced late models for several years, back when hi compression big blocks were the state of the art. They got a recipe from a guy that had raced regionally for years with pretty good results His recipe is:

25 Gallons premium pump gas
25 gallons 100 octane av gas
5 gallons toluene
2 quarts Marvel Mystery oil (or ATF)

My friend said this mix burned VERY clean, had great resistance to knock, and produced some serious horsepower. They never had any problems with combustion chamber deposits or fouled plugs. The toluene is very dry, so the lubricant helped the valve stems live.

[Jack Zupan]

Freddie,

Your math is correct. I don't know what xylene costs off hand but using the formula again your 4.5 gallons would cost you $12.38 plus your 15 gal of 93 octane. Say you get that for $1.60, you have $24 + $12.38 or $36.38 in your tank. That's $1.87/gal, cheaper than CAM2.

To put in my two cents as well. High octane gasoline is of no value if you don't have a detonation problem. Unless you are running a high compression engine, 11:1 and up, you probably don't need it.

Jack Z

[DAVID GAGNARD]

At our local dirt track 100 octane racing gas sells for $3.50 per gallon,105 octane gas goes for $4.00 per gallon. Our laquer thinner+gas mixture was less than $1.50 gallon!!!!!!!!!! Then we got the local Shell station to sponsor our gas and they gave us 10 gallons of premuim gas per nite of racing. We usually used about six or seven gallons per nite and poured the rest in the tow truck. So now our "home brewed" racing fuel only cost us the price of the thinner.....about $3.75 per gallon at Auto Zone, and with our mixture a gallon lasted about a month..... Our fuel bill was less than $5.00 per month!!!!!!!!!!!!

Know how to make a small fortune in dirt track racing??????Start with a large fortune!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

David

[Cobranut]

Freddie,

You're close. You need to figure the amount of additive divided by the total amount of mixture, not the amount of gasoline in the mix.
IE: 10%= 13.5 gas and 1.5 additive
20%= 12 gas and 3 additive
30%= 10.5 gas and 4.5 additive.

Later,