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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 07:32 AM
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This is a very interesting topic that I have been following for the past few days. I am not a chemist but I did work as a lab technician for several years, in the area of various types of solvents. Not being a chemist, I may not have everything absolutely 100% correct but I will offer my 2 cents worth anyway.

Several points have been made about toluene damaging the paint, being very flammable, it's ability to increase octane, etc. Toluene is a very good solvent which I have used many times to remove glue, old tape adhesive, etc. All solvents may damage a painted surface under the right conditions but toluene is not a paint remover. I wouldn't wash my car with it but a few drops on the paint will probably not damage the surface, assuming that the car didn't come out of the paint shop yesterday. If you do get some on the paint, do exactly the same thing as you would do if you spilled gasoline on the car. Wipe it off as quickly as possible and rewax the area since the wax has probably been removed.

Flammability is another issue. We are talking about a hydrocarbon solvent here, and we are going to mix it with gasoline. Both are extremely flammable and should be handled with care. I don't believe that toluene is any more dangerous to handle than gas. The flash point for toluene is 10 degrees C in a tag closed cup but while I couldn't find any data on gasoline, I would imagine that it is about the same or possibly lower. Let's face it, we are talking motor fuel here, be careful.

Toluene is a pure compound. That is to say that all of the molecules are the same. Gasoline is a blend of many different compounds that is produced in high volume to give certain characteristics when burned in an internal combustion engine.

One of the compounds typically found in gasoline is toluene. Xylene and benzene are two others, and the three are very good at increasing the octane but there are other factors involved. The refiners want to keep costs down and these three compounds are relatively expensive and can also be purified and sold for other uses. Additionally, benzene is a known carcinogen, that is one reason why gas pumps in California (and other areas) have the cancer warning sticker on them. I believe that the refiners have tried to reduce the amount of benzene in pump gasoline. It addition to the hydrocarbons in gasoline, the refiners also add various additives to boost octane, clean fuel injectors, etc.

There have been quite a few references made to lacquer thinner. Thinner is a blend of various solvents but there is no way to know what the producer blended unless you inquire. Toluene may, or may not, be in the blend. Lacquer thinners often contain esters, ketones, alcohols, and other hydrocarbon solvents such as toluene. If you think toluene is hard on your paint, try rubbing the paint with some lacquer thinner that contains acetone or ethyl acetate. Same goes for rubber o rings, hoses, gaskets, etc. Maybe one brand of thinner will not hurt them, but another could make a mess. Be careful since you don't know what is in the thinner.

So to sum up, toluene is a very good octane enhancer, it is a good solvent that may harm a painted surface, it is very flammable, it is found in most pump gasoline, and be careful using thinner.

I hope that I haven't made too many errors

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Wayne
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Last edited by Wayne Maybury; 08-29-2001 at 07:45 AM..
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 09:03 AM
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I used to use Toluene in my Pantera with good results. I needed a boost in octane because I had installed an 11.6:1 CR BOSS 351 engine in the car.

At one time, I was using over-the-counter octane boosters. I was having trouble with the 3-deuces on the car, and when my carb guy took them apart, he said "you're using octane boosters, aren't you?" He could tell by the deposits inside the carbs. That's when he told me about Toluene. I started using Toluene after that, and didn't have any problems. I would use 1 gallon of Toluene with 19 gals of gas - so about 5%. It seemed to be enough to get the BOSS to stop pinging.

I have basically the same engine in my Cobra. When I first got it running, the CR was so high it would only run (without detonation) on race gas. I had the combustion chambers opened up on the heads, and can now get by on a 50/50 mix of pump gas and race gas. These days, I feel a lot better about paying $3.95/gal for 110 octane than I do about paying $1.95 for 92 octane.

Besides....I like the smell of that 110 stuff coming out of the exhaust!

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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 01:56 PM
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Default Shell Optimax

We have no problems buying Optimax (Premium unleaded) which Shell claims to have an 98 octane rating for around 10% higher price than regular unleaded of 92/93 octane.
I ask what's the point of taking the considerable risk of messing around with these additives when 98 octane fuel is available at the pump ? Of course if you want to achieve > 100 octane, an additive is required.
I have been running this fuel for the past year or so since it has been available as do many other Cobra nuts down here. I guess the advantage of EFI coupled with a knock sensor takes care of fuel irregularities.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 03:36 PM
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So when are they going to load Gold Coast, Australia up on a ship & drop it off at the gold goast of Southern California USA???
But really... Unocal 76 just lowered their octane level to 91 from 92 locally. I don't know what the deal with that is but the good/bad news is that I do have access to one 100 octane pump now but it is the only one I know of within a 100 mile radius & the price is over $4.00 a gallon. I've been doing a lot of wishfull thinking lately but my budget just isn't expanding a fast as my expenses. Who's is? Right!?
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 04:24 PM
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Are you telling me that you can't buy 98 octane pump gas across the US ?
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 04:28 PM
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Arrow High Octane

I haven't seen anything over 93 octane for years here. That was back when Sunoco offered about 5 grades of fuel up to, I think, 96. I've never seen 98 at the pump in my entire 50+ years.... but then again, I haven't visited every commercial petrol stand state-side either.

Yawl are fortunate to have the 98 at the corner station.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 04:34 PM
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Well the norm here is 92 oct for standard unleaded, 96 oct. for premium unleaded and Shell Optimax at 98 octane,vroom.

Time for you guys to ship a container of Cobras downunder and take back some cheap petrol.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 05:00 PM
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Dave;

For us poor folks down here in Louisiana the norm is 87 octane for unleaded (today's average price $1.30),89 octane for unleaded + (about $1.39) and 92/93 octane for premium gas (about $1.50 or so). What I can not understand is here in Louisiana we are in the top 10 if not the top 5 oil produceing states and have tons of oil refineries within a 2 hour drive of my house and still pay higher gas prices than some states that produce a lot less or even very little oil.

Racing fuel is only available around here at race tracks generally from $3.50 to $4.00 per gallon. AV gas is around but they do not like to go pump a few gallons in a container for you unless you are buddies with someone at the airport or bulk plant.

So that's why we mess with additives so much,lack of high octane gas and cost when you do find it......

Remember,refer to my statement about large and small fortunes and you get the idea.......

David
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 05:05 PM
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Thanks for the information David, I realize how fortunate we are here, with the relatively high risk of handling these highly inflamable liquids, I'll keep away from them.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 05:08 PM
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Dave;

If you would give us the average price of the gas and it's octane rating in your area........


David
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 06:16 PM
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As you see I live in Australia and in fact in the lowest taxed state which makes our gas prices a little lower than elsewhere in Australia. At the current exchange rate of $US1.00 = $A1.90 we pay $US1.60 / gall. for regular unleaded 92 octane and $US1.80 / gall. for premium unleaded 98 octane.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 06:34 PM
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That's it! I've had it! I'm moving out of this sun bleached starry eyed place....
91 octane is about $1.75 here in So Cal & was around $2.10 a few weeks back. I expect that it will be back up there soon the way it has been fluctuating the last couple years.
For anyone living from Ventura to Hollywood, CA there is a Unocal 76 in the area of Agoura that has pump 100 Octane. It is at the Cheseboro exit off the 101 Freeway. You can't miss it, it sits right next to the freeway on the south side. last I checked it was $4.25 a Gal. Seems like half the time I stop in the pump isn't working. The attendant told me once that when they fill the tanks they don't always know how to reset the pump so they have to have someone come in to reset it before the 100 Octane pump will function.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 06:41 PM
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David,

I'm glad you posted this morning because my calculations were wrong. I was in a hurry and rushed through my response last night. I should just shut up if I don't take the time to make sure I know what I'm doing. In any event, to follow your post, note that 4.5 gal in 19.5 gal (15 + 4.5) is only 23.1 % so of course you need to take the final volume into account. What is scary is I do this stuff for a living so I should know better.

Wayne,

I'm a chemist and you are pretty much correct I think. As least the stuff I know about. I think the flash point of gasoline is quite a bit lower than toluene becuase it is a lot more volatile. Also I think the boiling point is a useful measure of volatility. Toluene boils at 110 degrees and xylene around 135. I think the gasoline fraction is usually around 60-80 (not positive about this) so it is quite a bit lower boiling. For this reason I wouldn't expect much aromatics (benzene, toluene and xylene) in normal gasoline.

Regards,

Jack Z
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2001, 06:48 PM
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ok ok you guys, we have enough refugees trying to invade our shores so before you rev up and try to accelerate your way in take a look at where I live:

www.reflections.com.au/GoldCoast/index.html
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2001, 06:28 AM
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Gold Coast, Australia, heh. Must be tough - ocean, beaches, bikinis, high octane fuel. What a terrible way to live. I much prefer Indiana!
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2001, 07:30 AM
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Jack Z

You are right about the boiling points for Toluene (110 C) and Xylene (about 135 to 140 C). I said that the data I had was not clear for gasoline, actually my chemical dictionary is quite old so the information is probably for the old leaded gas. In any event, the boiling point for gasoline is listed as 60-200 C. I am not sure how much the boiling point range would have changed when the switch was made to unleaded many years ago. By the way, the boiling point for Benzene is 80 C which certainly makes it more volatile than the other two.

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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2001, 02:44 PM
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Dave;


Let's see; beaches, bikinis, fishing, great weather most o the year, beautiful landscape (from what I can see on the site, no in-laws, no wife, no 15 year old daughter to drive me crazy, what is the down side to moving to the Gold Coast??????

Anybody know how much it is to ship a 65 Mustang to Australia??????

Dave, do you know of anyone in need of a good auto damage appraiser????????

Dave, put another shrimp on the barbie,I'm coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


David
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2001, 03:25 PM
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Wayne,

I also looked up gasoline today in the Merck Index. It listed the boiling point range you state. I thought I was working from memory which is obviously faulty and also I was thinking about carbon numbers since I think a major fraction is in the C5 - C7 range. But I won't speculate any more, next time I'll look it up and then post. It's less trouble. Also you were right about the aromatics, there is quite a lot in gas, 20% and more. This actually surprises me but that is what my references said, though the fraction is coming down for environmental concerns. Sorry about misleading you yesterday.

Jack Z

Last edited by Jack Zupan; 08-30-2001 at 05:04 PM..
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2001, 03:29 PM
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Hi David,

Auto damage appraiser ? Why not, we have a country of lousy roads and crazy drivers but from what I have seen of the world, not worse than anywhere else.

Do you want to sell a 65 Mustang ? No problem shipping it down here. Tell me more.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 08-30-2001, 06:16 PM
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Dave;

Can't sell my "baby" although I have had plenty of offers. You would have to catch me in a weak moment and make me an Indecent Proposal...... Everything I own is for sale with the exception of about three items (family heirlooms) for the right price,problem is the right price may be out-a-sight.

If I would move to the Gold Coast, I surely would plan to bring it along.....

Yep,I know about drivers and roads,they are pretty much all the same. You have crazys everywhere you go and people will still be smashing them up for a long time....In my line of work it's called job security......

BTW, I can just about eat my weight in shrimp on the barbie,so send out the shrimp boats early when I come....


David
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