Octane Additives?

[Dave Samson]

I've seen much of the USA during the last 30 + years, matter of fact my folks only recently relocated to Sydney after living in Raleigh,NC and L.A., CA for more than 30 years. One of the few places I haven't been to is your neck of the woods, but there's plenty of time for that (I hope).

Incidentally, I don't like catfish.

Say, what is the fair market value for a 65 Mustang ?

[cobrashoch]

Interesting Thread going here ya think? MY 2 centavoes with some questions.

Dave Maybury/Jack Zupan- Chemistry is 100% correct.(I think) One thing you guys touched on but didn't expand on was what they are trying to get out of gas. Sulfur, benzenes, cynides , and other trace metals come to mine along with certain aromatics. The sulfur will have big time consequences in the near future I'm reading in the trades. I like the way this tread has got past the wives tales about toluene to. Now, as for the the pros and cons of toluene, have we sort of reached a standstill ?

Dave Samson- Before I move to your coast are you sure that 98 octane gas sold down there is 98 octane using the same method of rating used here in the states? Just curious.

Jam1775-The advice you got on previous replys was fairly sound.
Octane does slow down the burn in your engine. In your case you should stay with better gas though, not for the performance gains, but for the additives that help your engines starting, etc.
As for the performance piece and octane, the performance guys in the other places are correct and this is the dope: The more ignition advance you run in your engine the more power it makes, up to a point then power goes down with even more advance. Increasing octane lets you increase the amount of ignition advance you can run. Both statments above are controled/regulated by your engines static compression. Very few folks I have found, optimise their gas/ignition to get the most power out of their engines. In the real world compromises are made because of the rotten gas thats out there and this is why it's largely a performance thing.

So, does a 30% toluene mix screw up fuel injectors? This might be a question for performance injection folks, right? I know for a fact it does not bother carbed applications per a thread here on Clubcobra called "secondary fuel delivery systems(long)" I entered a long time ago. You see, I started foolin with this stuff back in 1976 and even then toluene won the war. My next step, I want to try oxygen rich fuel mixes(alcohols and nitromethanes)together with toluene mixes on a secondary fuel injection system
for drag racing next season. Should be fun!

cobrashock

Wow-Dave replied before I could edit out my rotton' spellin'!

[Dave Samson]

Hey Cobrashoch,
Just to confirm what I quoted in this thread I checked with the Shell oil company techos and they confirmed that the 98 octane that I mentioned is in fact 98 RON which as we know is an international definition. Here's their reply:
Hi David,
The octane levels of our unleaded fuels are:
Unleaded - 91 RON
Premium Unleaded - 96 RON
Optimax (if available) - 98 RON
I hope this information helps.
Regards,
Shell Technical Advice

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Dave;

Here in the south at least,65 Mustangs are still plentiful enough to get one. 65 coupes that are in good shape ,all original, and you could drive them home go from around $2,000 on up to as much as $6,000 for restored models. Fastbacks are more expensive. One recently sold for $7,500 here,it was repainted and the original body was in very good shape,the owner had added news style steel wheels and tires,9" disc brake rear end and a 5-speed Tremec trans. He had also gone thru the interrior with new carpet and seat covers. I know for a fact he had spent abut 10 grand including the purchase price for the car and drove it less than 1,000 miles. This was a very good buy for this car. Some other Fastbacks start at around $5,000 on up for non-restored models that are all original and still driveable.

Right now, the coupes are a real good buy if someone is interested and they are still a fairly common site on the roads.

David

[Wayne Maybury]

I have made a couple of posts regarding my opinions on Toluene, gasoline, etc. Both Jack Z and I have looked up data and tried to report our findings to the best of our ability. However, I wanted an expert opinion on what is actually in gasoline today so I contacted a freind who put me in contact with a recently retired petroleum engineer who is also a car nut. Here are some of his comments. To my American friends, I have to admit that all of his comments are based on Canadian gasoline but I think that our gas and US gas is just about the same with the exception of some additives.

Typical pump "super" gasoline contains about 30% toluene and xylene. "Regular" contains somewhat less.

Refiners have reduced the amount of benzene in gasoline to less than 1% quite a few years ago.

There are hundreds of componds in pump gasoline.

In his opinion, toluene is less dangerous than gasoline but obviously both are highly flammable.

He has no experience with nitromethane but he confirmed that it is a very dangerous product to handle and great care must be exercised when doing so. He said that he would never try to use it without knowing a lot more about it. It is for the pros.

He also confirmed that he would never put lacquer thinner in his car since he would have no idea what was blended to make the thinner. The thinner may, or may not, contain toluene. He did say that adding toluene to your gas will increase the octane with no side effects since it is already present in the gas. We did not discuss volumes, percentages, etc.

He worked on a project a few yeras ago involving evaluating the effects of adding 10% ethanol to normal gas. He stated that he went into the project with a negative attitude but that quickly changed when they ran dyno tests on a modern Corvette. The Vette produced more HP and torque with the 10% ethanol blend and it also had better 1/4 mile times. The down side is that it burned more fuel. He said he was quite impressed with their findings. He also said that adding ethanol to gas will increase the octane about the same amount as if an equal volume of toluene was added.

He was talking ethanol, not methanol. He said to never add methanol to your gas. He was involved in another project where they ran a fleet of Luminas on a methanol/gasoline blend. Even though the cars were specially modified to be able to use the methanol, they had all kinds of problems. Much of the difficulties related to corrosion. He said the methanol attacked just about everything in the fuel delivery system.

I hope this clears up some of the points we have been discussing. Again, I would like to say that this has been a most interesting topic to discuss.

Regards,
Wayne

[CobraEd]

Nitromethane is not an octaine booster. It is a self oxegenating "power booster" all of the adds from the nitro suppliers state that it does not increase octain.

Ed

[jgrice]

I live relatively close to you - in Mt Clemens.

My car runs significantly better on 100 oct. A couple of choices.Sunoco sells Turbo Blue at select stations for 3.50/gall. There is a distributor out by you - you can order 50 gallon drums.

Another choice is a blend of Av fuel and Prem. I would blend as straight av fuel makes the car hard to start in this climate. For use the airport on Fred Moore Highway in St clair will sell it. Try Pontiac airport.

Jeff
SPF #186 460/565hp

[DAVID GAGNARD]

Wayne;

Thanks for the great info on the subject, I agree with everything you said 100%, that's why I had to run out to the workshop for my can of thinner for the ingredients. They were as follows; Toluene-ketones-methanol-petroleum distillates. I seem to remember 5 or 6 years ago when we started using this stuff that I either called or wrote to the company for the percentages of each ingredient. And as my poor memory goes it was something like 90 something % toluene and 5% or less of all the others combined. I could be wrong on this but I do not think these numbers are far off.

The brand we use is sold at Auto Zone under the company name of Klene Strip as Virgin Lacquer Thinner,it goes for around $3.75 per gallon.

I agree with you on the methanol use. It is very corrosive,just ask any dirt track racer. That is what the upper class cars run on. They have to use carbs designed or modified for that fuel and all stainless steel fuel lines and they drain the entire fuel system after a nites racing and leave it dry until the next time. It's quite a hassle to me to run this fuel and we only use the thinner because the amount of methanol in it is so little that it will not hurt our carb of fuel system.

Thanks for the expert info;

David

[Dave Samson]

Speaking of flammable liquids, flashpoint,etc, I just couldn't resist:

Written above the urinal:

"No matter how you jump and dance,...

The last two drops go down your pants."

[Wayne Maybury]

CobraEd

The reference to nitro had nothing to do with octane, it was a response to a couple of comments on a similar thread in All Cobra Talk.

Dave

hahaha

David

I realize that this has worked well for you for some time. Your latest post indicates the reason why. I guess my comments on thinner are more for someone wanting to "try something". I never realized that methanol was such a pain. The engineer said that it would attack gas lines, pumps, carbs, etc., same as your experience. In this part of the world, we use methanol as a gas line antifreeze in the winter months but in very small quantities, just a few ounces per tank of gas and normally only when there is a problem. I try to never let my tank go below 1/2 in the winter to avoid condensation, of course this is in the Explorer, not the Cobra which is tucked away for a few months.

Wayne

[Dave Samson]

take a look at this :
http://www.cs.ruu.nl/wais/html/na-di...line-faq/.html

[olichevy]

I have had great success using laquer thinner(tolulene) (6oz)and denatured alcohol(6oz)to 1 gal of 93 oct supreme. What a difference in my 450hp 383 chevy motor with 12:1 compression, no more knock and kick butt power! I do this without any modification to the holley 830 cfm carb I run! thanks for the info guys

[SCOBRAC]

Tolulene is 114 octane Xylene is 117. Both are sold commercially for various reasons the most common is paint thinner.

Do the math though. 6 ounces of either makes little diference in a tank of fuel. Both are highly flamable, though not much more than gasoline. You should know both have a corrosive effect on rubber seals and gaskets and should be limited to less than 30% by volume to reduce the chance of hose and or fuel pump failure.

If you take 10% tolulene (say 1 gallon in a 10 gallon fuel load) and 9 gallons of 91 octane (the highest octane available in Calif) you get an overall octane of 93.3... 20% is 95.6 and 30% is 97.9.

6 ounces of anything which is 114 octane or 117 octane will only net you a few thenths, these are reffered to as "points" on the back of the cotane boost bottles. a bottle of octane boost may net you an increase of .4-.7 or 4 to 7 points, 91.4-91.7. Most commercial octane boosters are Tolulene or Xylene.

You might not make a good deal more power, but you will get everything you can out of the power available to you by way of timing, etc. The other thing is many (most) engines running 11:1 or more will tend to diesel on shutdown or ping or shutter under load without at least 93 octane.

Most Home Depot stores have both. They sell for 5-10 dollars a gollon depending on the size you buy. Either way it's better than $5-10 for a little bottle of octane booster.

[DAVID GAGNARD]

I forget what my formula is,would have to look it up,but I use lacquer thinner mixed with 93 octane for racing only,street use I just use the 93 octane..... I like a little more "protection" for my motor when racing..... Sustained high rpms and a little higher oil and water temps......If I remember right I use "about" 15% to 20% thinner and end up with around 96 to 98 octane........

The lacquer thinner I use is 97% toulene and I get if from a local body repair shop,he buys it by the 55 gal. drum and sells it to me at his cost,last five gallons was a whopping 2 bucks a gallon..... A five gallon can usually last me a racing season.......pretty cheap "race gas"......been doing this for about six or seven years with the same gas tank,fuel pump,fuel lines and carb and have had NO problems,yet,knock on wood....

When I come home form a race or open track event,I usually try to use my car that week to go to work and use up any left over "race gas",just for safety's sake,I run the tank as low as I dare before filling up with 93 pump gas..........

David

[JAM1775]

Sorry to dig this old thread up again but I learned a whole bunch just reading what you guys had to say ! The other day I did some research in my area.
I found 100% toluene at $8.95 per gallon, still seemed a bargain compared to Pep Boys quart bottle of 108 Boost at $5.99/quart which lists toluene as a partial ingredient. The entire quart would raise the tank about 3 tenths. The gallon can of toluene was found at a Sherwin Williams Paint store.
No other availability in pure form anywhere I looked in my area.
The rep told me 5 gallon cans were $44.75. No gain there !
Other products listed as lacquer thinners (mentioned on this thread) had ingredients that totally lost me !
Toluene 108-88-3
Methanol 67-56-1
Acetone 67-64-1
Iospopyl Alchohol 67-63-0
N.Butyl Acetate 123-86-4
I did not stop by a body shop as suggested above.
Is toluene still a bargain at $8.95 per gallon ?