Alloycars Aluminum Bodied FORUM Project

[AL427SBF]

For objective club members to present ideas, suggestions and opinions regarding a FFR MKIV aluminum outer shell and other structural, mechanical or cosmetic upgrades.
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[J.Jensen]

How many FFR mkIV cars are out there?

I think starting to make a replacement alu body, at least if the goal is 100 point accuracy like they did the Spyder, why not go into a niche of the market that nobody covers?

We have ERA with fiberglass in kit, roller and turnkey on top of the fibreglass game, and there is nothing linking the gap between them and the Kirkham.

Why not make a kit with as close to 100% accuracy as possible - but deliver an alu body on top of it? Since Kirkham only makes complete rollers only needing engine and trans, someone should cover the kit market with that quality and originality as a goal.

[Alloycars]

Originally Posted by J.Jensen

How many FFR mkIV cars are out there?

I think starting to make a replacement alu body, at least if the goal is 100 point accuracy like they did the Spyder, why not go into a niche of the market that nobody covers?

We have ERA with fiberglass in kit, roller and turnkey on top of the fibreglass game, and there is nothing linking the gap between them and the Kirkham.

Why not make a kit with as close to 100% accuracy as possible - but deliver an alu body on top of it? Since Kirkham only makes complete rollers only needing engine and trans, someone should cover the kit market with that quality and originality as a goal.

I think this is the way to go. I need some wheelbase information and see if there are some modifications to do. The goal for now is getting FFR cars rebodied. This can be made with original body shapes too....at the end its the same effort.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by AL427SBF

For objective club members to present ideas, suggestions and opinions regarding a FFR MKIV aluminum outer shell and other structural, mechanical or cosmetic upgrades.
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Ah yes, but to stay objective, one must first see where Alloycars is coming from. To do so, they only have to CLICK HERE

As stated elsewhere, the idea and concept is sound, yet in order to reach their broadest market (the FFR rebody concept), they will need to make subtle and not so subtle changes to their "molds" and substructures.

MK I
Mk 1.5 (known as the first tweener chassis)
MK II
MK II.5
MK III
MK III.5

and finally

MK IV.

Each chassis had running changes made to them, and as such, each offering from Alloycars will need to be able to adapt to those changes from one FFR chassis to the next, especially with a "bolt on" aluminum body offering.

One idea would be to offer their services to adjust and custom mount such a body/subframe to a customers rolling chassis. In this way, the craftsman who are building their 550 Spyder could do the intricate work required to get the body installed and properly aligned on each specific chassis. This would eliminate the need for multiple offerings as stated above.

Another idea, one which Ingo/Tom alluded to would be to offer a body already mounted on a new MK IV chassis.

Now, staying objective, the main issue I see is cost, if they can do it for say 20K (body mounted on chassis, not including FFR base kit in that figure), they will hit it out of the ballpark. if they expect someone to cough up say 40K+ for one of their bodies mounted on the customer supplied chassis, I think they will miss the target audience that they are going after.

Same goes for the offering of an aluminum body for an ERA, SPF, Unique, etc. As the engineering that would be required to adapt an aluminum body to each would be cost prohibitive, even with a projected 10 year break even.

Just the two cents worth from someone who has been around these cars since 1979/1980 and has watched all sorts of companies and ideas come and go in that time.



Bill S.

[Alloycars]

Originally Posted by mrmustang

Ah yes, but to stay objective, one must first see where Alloycars is coming from. To do so, they only have to CLICK HERE[/url]

As stated elsewhere, the idea and concept is sound, yet in order to reach their broadest market (the FFR rebody concept), they will need to make subtle and not so subtle changes to their "molds" and substructures.

Bill S.

First, thank you mrmustang for trying being objective...even showing a link where you posted your false accusations again.
You also have officially declared that your knowledge about MK chassis are not like as they must be ...YOUR WORDS: "MKIII dosent have a square chassis....Alloycars hasnt build this car...it came from Kirkham and it is an MKII)
Its backfiring now and dont try to secure your position. You are and you will be a keyboard sling shooter.
And my apologize that I am not willing to accept your "excellent" knowledge for our project.

[LMH]

it would pretty much be something where you took your FFR to them and they did all the frame mods and fit the body. Lots of labor and not for the inexperienced.
Aluminum doesn't stand on its own like fiberglass.
Larry

[Buzz]

As accurate as possible body shape is the key to any alloy bodied Cobra project. Most people willing to step up to an aluminium body will want an aesthetically correct looking car with all of the subtle characteristics of body shape, stance, ride height and wheel-to-body relationship that define a faithful replication.

I agree with others that a body/frame combination based on the already available FFR chassis would be a good way to go. Kirkham is the acknowledged market leader and gold standard in this segment so a new sub-niche at a lower price point would need to be established and exploited. Keep the focus on visual/external accuracy (as opposed to an inside and out engineered exact replication) and keep costs down by using as much already-available hardware and components as possible.

For accurate body shapes to replicate, look to cars like ERA, Kirkham and Exact Carbon Fiber, etc. Pay attention to the way the body sits over the wheels/tires and the overall stance of the finished car. Tires MUST fit inside of wheel arches and not protrude from the body.

Some other important visual details that Cobraphiles look for (others may be added):

Visible roll bar legs in cockpit
Radiator tilted back
Height and shape of roll bar
Engine compartment layout
Dashboard layout
Shape of radiator opening and oil cooler intake
Windshield angle.

PS - Do not respond to personal attacks in this thread even if they happen. The moderators have probably had enough and the threads will be closed down. Nothing will be accomplished.

[Alloycars]

First, thank you mrmustang for trying being objective...even showing a link where you posted your false accusations.

As told I am willing to go for a FFR MKIV conversion kit with an aluminum body.
I have seen that a MKIII is a totally different world but I got a good idea as in fact the body construction himself will not change...just the shape.

So lets start. What I need?
- I have information that the MKIV body is a copy from an original car. Is this right?

- Hood, doors and trunk aluminum panels from an original car are supported by individually tubular subframes. The MKIV has fiberglass and a front subframe.
SHould this be changed?
For body to chassis attachments we can go later.

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Alloycars

First, thank you mrmustang for trying being objective...even showing a link where you posted your false accusations.

Sorry, but everything I posted in that other thread can be backed up by pure fact and your own posts prove that. Adding such nonsense to this thread, continuing to deny what you have posted and/or used, showing a complete lack of personal responsibility will only cause the demise of what could be a quite productive thread for your company. Perhaps you are not tech savvy enough to understand why this is so, but there are plenty of others who are, and have seen through our underhandedness.

So, before you respond again, I suggest you take a step back from your computer, take a few deep breaths, and think before you start typing, as you are only doing your personal reputation, and subsequently the reputation of your company harm.


Bill S.

PS: Might I add the following: All ideas written here are the sole property of said participant. As dated and time stamped by the forum software. Not certain what that means to you and your company, I suggest that you seek legal counsel to explain it to you.

[Alloycars]

As told I am willing to go for a FFR MKIV conversion kit with an aluminum body together with this forum:

I have seen that a MKIII is a totally different world but I got a good idea as in fact the body construction himself will not change...just the shape.

So lets start. What I need?
- I have information that the MKIV body is a copy from an original car. Is this right?

- Hood, doors and trunk aluminum panels from an original car are supported by individually tubular subframes. The MKIV has fiberglass and a front subframe.
SHould this be changed?
For body to chassis attachments we can go later.

[Alloycars]

I have some trouble to post as I have to wait 5-10 minutes before the thread shows up. Sorry

[Alloycars]

Ok, so lets get right. MKIV bodies are not a copy of originals as FFR claims???

[mrmustang]

Originally Posted by Alloycars

Ok, so lets get right. MKIV bodies are not a copy of originals as FFR claims???

The MK IV from FFR is based on a digitized scan of Dick Smith's #188 original 427 Cobra.

There is no front or rear subframe for that matter, just a main frame, then the "birdcage" attached to that frame, to support their Fiberglass body. The same concept is used for the original Cobra, as there must be a "birdcage" subframe to properly support the aluminum body attached to the main frame.

As a matter of engineering, the main frame and birdcage are as one unit, the aluminum body is then wrapped around and fitted/attached to that birdcage substructure.


Bill S.

[Buzz]

Will you guys just stop with the pissing contest? Leave it in the other thread. If nothing else - lets enjoy the speculation of what a feasible alloy bodied Cobra product could entail

[G-Pete]

Originally Posted by Buzz

Will you guys just stop with the pissing contest? Leave it in the other thread. If nothing else - lets enjoy the speculation of what a feasible alloy bodied Cobra product could entail

Well, not just no but HELL NO.

Do you think I let this guy insult me and he gets away --- no chance.

The story changes by the hour - he had all opportunities to come clean and start off new.

But no, that individual choose the path where it goes now...

[CHANMADD]

Give it up man .......You are showing your assholeness.........

Originally Posted by G-Pete

Well, not just no but HELL NO.

Do you think I let this guy insult me and he gets away --- no chance.

The story changes by the hour - he had all opportunities to come clean and start off new.

But no, that individual choose the path where it goes now...

[Three Peaks]

After seeing the Factory Five offerings, which I think are an excellent kit and well built, there are many differences between them and an original style body. I am building (almost finished) an Exact Carbon Cobra built on Roger's original spec'd frame and the differences are huge. Since this is splashed off an original body, it isn't symmetrical so copying an original will be an exercise in futility, IMHO.
Better to simply copy the Factory Five body completely or do like the Kirkhams and do a scan and clean it up side to side and make the body symmetrical- then try to figure out how to fit it to the Factory Five chassis.
If you go original with the body (albeit making it symmetrical ala Kirkham), you would need to make modifications to the Factory Five frame to make it fit. some of these modifications may end being pretty substantial, some are more minor.
For instance, the outriggers would need to changed and/or shortened and the mounting points relocated to accomodate the wrap around at the rocker that the originals had and the Factory Five doesn't. The Mark IV does have some wrap around at the rocker- more than the early models, but not to the extent the originals had.

The birdcage is already in place in the Factory Five chassis, but will it fit your original style body? Probably not, unless it closely matches the Factory Five body to begin with. Otherwise, more time and money would need to be spent altering the birdcage. For a kit builder, these two items would be a huge undertaking, not to mention expensive since most would have to take it to a welder to have the modifications done. These are not easy modifications to do, as I have done the bird cage and most of the smaller tubing modifications/additions on my chassis.

In my opinion, if you want to go forward with this idea, you need to basically copy the body of the car you intend to replace the body with. If you wish to go with FFR as your first foray, your best bet would be to buy an FFR base kit Mark IV, bring it to your shop, and do some homework to see what is the best way to proceed. You may scrap the idea, you may produce a matching body, or you may decide to offer a kit with the necessary parts to adapt your body. If you are planning on offering a complete car, you may need to familiarize yourself with US laws and regulations regarding selling complete cars. There is a reason the Kirkhams, ERA's, Shelbys, and other kits are sold as rollers as there are extensive rules and regulations in place that would make selling a complete turn key car cost prohibitive.
On top of everything else, I think at your price point of $85K turn key, I think you are painting yourself into a very small niche corner where you won't make enough money to be able to sustain your business model for very long.

Bob

[Alloycars]

Originally Posted by Three Peaks

After seeing the Factory Five offerings, which I think are an excellent kit and well built, there are many differences between them and an original style body. I am building (almost finished) an Exact Carbon Cobra built on Roger's original spec'd frame and the differences are huge. Since this is splashed off an original body, it isn't symmetrical so copying an original will be an exercise in futility, IMHO.
Better to simply copy the Factory Five body completely or do like the Kirkhams and do a scan and clean it up side to side and make the body symmetrical- then try to figure out how to fit it to the Factory Five chassis.
If you go original with the body (albeit making it symmetrical ala Kirkham), you would need to make modifications to the Factory Five frame to make it fit. some of these modifications may end being pretty substantial, some are more minor.
For instance, the outriggers would need to changed and/or shortened and the mounting points relocated to accomodate the wrap around at the rocker that the originals had and the Factory Five doesn't. The Mark IV does have some wrap around at the rocker- more than the early models, but not to the extent the originals had.

The birdcage is already in place in the Factory Five chassis, but will it fit your original style body? Probably not, unless it closely matches the Factory Five body to begin with. Otherwise, more time and money would need to be spent altering the birdcage. For a kit builder, these two items would be a huge undertaking, not to mention expensive since most would have to take it to a welder to have the modifications done. These are not easy modifications to do, as I have done the bird cage and most of the smaller tubing modifications/additions on my chassis.

In my opinion, if you want to go forward with this idea, you need to basically copy the body of the car you intend to replace the body with. If you wish to go with FFR as your first foray, your best bet would be to buy an FFR base kit Mark IV, bring it to your shop, and do some homework to see what is the best way to proceed. You may scrap the idea, you may produce a matching body, or you may decide to offer a kit with the necessary parts to adapt your body. If you are planning on offering a complete car, you may need to familiarize yourself with US laws and regulations regarding selling complete cars. There is a reason the Kirkhams, ERA's, Shelbys, and other kits are sold as rollers as there are extensive rules and regulations in place that would make selling a complete turn key car cost prohibitive.
On top of everything else, I think at your price point of $85K turn key, I think you are painting yourself into a very small niche corner where you won't make enough money to be able to sustain your business model for very long.

Bob

Hi Bob, a long post and full with information. 85k is very fine for us for a standard version, dont worry.
I dont want to be a competitor with Kirkham at all. We will have different products and I like a lot what they are doing...it is just amazing.
They are going a totally different way. I have no any intention to be a competitor...and there is no reason. I am going for a different market.

[Alloycars]

And yes, I will not respond to personally attacks anymore as this is worthless. Lets gather information enough to get this project done.

[Buzz]

They are based in part on scans of an original car but there are some deviations in the proportions. Its a good car but not the most accurate in appearance.