Best way to proceed with improving up 427 Windsor street setup

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by blykins

I still think there has been a break in communication somewhere. I know that Eric has a chassis dyno there, and to me, there would be little reason to pull (20) Roush 427R's out of the crate and put them on an engine dyno before installing them into Cobras.

My gut tells me that the info that has been provided above has all been chassis dyno stuff, which opens a whole other can of worms, and a whole other can of variables.

Would like to see the dyno sheet.

Actually, not many variables.

The dyno sheet I looked at were chassis dyno's. Eric told me he was impressed how good my engine ran. Mine had 10.5:1 CR. Eric told me the chassis dyno incorporated the upgraded side pipes, that I had him install on my car, as were installed on the ? superformance cobra's he also had dyno'd. He showed me the dyno sheets, and per him, it was apples to apples.

Believe what you want to believe.

Here is the dyno sheet eric gave me, of the best running roush 427R he had dyno tuned.



chassis dyno Roush 427R - Club Cobra Photo Gallery

Here is the dyno sheet of my engine, stock stroke ford FE 427 Hi-Riser heads, 10.5:1 CR, Holley 780 vac, 1964 factory Ford dual plane intake.



Chassis Dyno - Last Run 427 High Riser - Club Cobra Photo Gallery


Let's see, my engine made 40 more hp, and 50 more ft-lbs torque, not that it really matters.

Let me guess, you still don't believe me.

[twin turbo]

That's strange, all my dyno sheets show my hp and torque crossing/equal at 5252 rpm.

[Ace23]

So while the WWF cage match of the 427 Windsor vs 427 FE is brewing I would like to better understand the following so I can understand the decisions I am making.

ALL QUESTIONS ARE BASED OFF A WINDSOR PLATFORM BETWEEN 427-460CI

*Edelbrock list the Performer RRM Air Gap for a RPM range of 1,500-6,500. Now with this being said I am sure that cam selection , cylinder heads and compression all play a major role. My question relates to a street car that lets say peaks at 5500-5800rpm leaving you shifting at 6000rpm. Why is the dual plane not the appropriate intake? Brent why did you build your 438W with the RPM air gap instead of the Victor Jr?

*2" primary header size. This has been a 50/50 answer that I've recieved. Why on a street car would you keep 2" headers? The only information I have come across that seems to have come from someone who actually had 2" headers was an old post on here were a guy had a Roush 427 and he stated that on the dyno the 2" made a few HP more but only on the very top end......while the bottom end was down 25-50 torque. Is the 2" header design only applicable for cars that would be tracked?. If a street car is setup for 6000rpm why would a 2" primary header size be appropriate.

[blykins]

Originally Posted by Ace23

So while the WWF cage match of the 427 Windsor vs 427 FE is brewing I would like to better understand the following so I can understand the decisions I am making.

ALL QUESTIONS ARE BASED OFF A WINDSOR PLATFORM BETWEEN 427-460CI

*Edelbrock list the Performer RRM Air Gap for a RPM range of 1,500-6,500. Now with this being said I am sure that cam selection , cylinder heads and compression all play a major role. My question relates to a street car that lets say peaks at 5500-5800rpm leaving you shifting at 6000rpm. Why is the dual plane not the appropriate intake? Brent why did you build your 438W with the RPM air gap instead of the Victor Jr?

*2" primary header size. This has been a 50/50 answer that I've recieved. Why on a street car would you keep 2" headers? The only information I have come across that seems to have come from someone who actually had 2" headers was an old post on here were a guy had a Roush 427 and he stated that on the dyno the 2" made a few HP more but only on the very top end......while the bottom end was down 25-50 torque. Is the 2" header design only applicable for cars that would be tracked?. If a street car is setup for 6000rpm why would a 2" primary header size be appropriate.

Well, some customers ask for intakes specifically, either because of hood clearance or other issues. I typically would not use a dual plane intake on such a large engine, even if it is a 6000 rpm engine.

As for Anthony's dyno results, I would be concerned about what differences there were between cars and years of dynoing....and the fact that the numbers don't match the graph, as they do with the roush engine....

[jhv48]

As an aside, I own that 438W that Brent built last year and I can attest to the fact that it is a sweet street engine. Pulls like a freight train from about 1800 rpm and will cruise all day at 2000 rpm if that's what you want. I like to keep it around 2600 rpm. Then it's real happy.

[SPF1061]

Originally Posted by Ace23

So while the WWF cage match of the 427 Windsor vs 427 FE is brewing I would like to better understand the following so I can understand the decisions I am making.

ALL QUESTIONS ARE BASED OFF A WINDSOR PLATFORM BETWEEN 427-460CI

*Edelbrock list the Performer RRM Air Gap for a RPM range of 1,500-6,500. Now with this being said I am sure that cam selection , cylinder heads and compression all play a major role. My question relates to a street car that lets say peaks at 5500-5800rpm leaving you shifting at 6000rpm. Why is the dual plane not the appropriate intake? Brent why did you build your 438W with the RPM air gap instead of the Victor Jr?

*2" primary header size. This has been a 50/50 answer that I've recieved. Why on a street car would you keep 2" headers? The only information I have come across that seems to have come from someone who actually had 2" headers was an old post on here were a guy had a Roush 427 and he stated that on the dyno the 2" made a few HP more but only on the very top end......while the bottom end was down 25-50 torque. Is the 2" header design only applicable for cars that would be tracked?. If a street car is setup for 6000rpm why would a 2" primary header size be appropriate.

I put 2" headers on my Roush 427R. (Dual plane intake with AED 750, 3" Stainless Specialties mufflers). They sounded and felt really good at the very top end for the last 1500 rpm or so, just before it hit the rev limiter@ 6400 rpm. Low end torque was way off. This was verified on the dyno, on the drag strip and daily street driving seat of the pants. Overall performance was better with the stock Superformance headers. I really wanted the bigger headers to be better. In my experience, they weren't. FWIW. Your mileage may vary, so to speak.

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by SPF1061

I put 2" headers on my Roush 427R. (Dual plane intake with AED 750, 3" Stainless Specialties mufflers). They sounded and felt really good at the very top end for the last 1500 rpm or so, just before it hit the rev limiter@ 6400 rpm. Low end torque was way off. This was verified on the dyno, on the drag strip and daily street driving seat of the pants. Overall performance was better with the stock Superformance headers. I really wanted the bigger headers to be better. In my experience, they weren't. FWIW. Your mileage may vary, so to speak.

Great info on the headers! I thought most Roush 427R's used a single plane intake. Did you change to a dual plane and if so which intake? If you thought the bottom end disappeared with the larger headers and dual plane then you can imagine how mine might feel with 2" and a single plane. My side pipes are currently 2-1/2" but I'm going to 3". We are very close to getting it buttoned back up for a test ride to see if the new fuel system solves the missing power issue.

[Ace23]

Construction Zone

Current 2" Headers

A few hours of elbow grease to put the shine on it. I've used White Diamond polish and I should have taken before pics.....was awful. You can see how the manifold is a real eye sore now. Do not worry the yellow oil pressure line is going black. I also want to take the vaccum line of the #8 cylinder and relocate it. I am going to get rid of the rubber line and go with a braided line.

[SPF1061]

Originally Posted by Ace23

Great info on the headers! I thought most Roush 427R's used a single plane intake. Did you change to a dual plane and if so which intake? If you thought the bottom end disappeared with the larger headers and dual plane then you can imagine how mine might feel with 2" and a single plane. My side pipes are currently 2-1/2" but I'm going to 3". We are very close to getting it buttoned back up for a test ride to see if the new fuel system solves the missing power issue.

I bought my Roush through Dennis Olthoff's shop. Dennis recommended the dual plane intake. It was shipped from Roush that way. I believe they use an Edelbrock Performer. It is a stout motor that has turned 11:30s/125mph at the strip on Avon's and is still very steerable. I just rolled over 75,000 miles on the odometer. 40,000+ miles of that on the Roush with a rebuild about 10,000 miles ago.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ace23

So while the WWF cage match of the 427 Windsor vs 427 FE is brewing I would like to better understand the following so I can understand the decisions I am making.

My post was directed that you can still make a lot of power with a dual plane intake.

And as an caveat, a "1964 Ford crate 427 Hi-Riser dual plane intake engine" made a lot of horsepower, even though many consider that it was at a disadvantage being that it was FE design coupled with a dual plane intake, and it performed as well, or even better than a much more state of the art crate 427 windsor.

So, I think if you get a good dual plane, as compared to a single plane, there may not be as much of a difference in HP as you may think.

I didn;t build my FE 427 with any HP figures as a target, or was intially comparing it to any other engine. I wanted to replicate a 427 FE that one could purchase from Ford at that time the 427 cobra's were being built. The HP output is what it is, and it surprised me to some degree. If it was lower, I still would have been equally satisfied, as the HP figure was really not that important to me, only to get it dyno tuned to the best it could be.

[blykins]

Anthony, any port work done? Which cam did you use?

[Ace23]

Originally Posted by Anthony

My post was directed that you can still make a lot of power with a dual plane intake.

And as an caveat, a "1964 Ford crate 427 Hi-Riser dual plane intake engine" made a lot of horsepower, even though many consider that it was at a disadvantage being that it was FE design coupled with a dual plane intake, and it performed as well, or even better than a much more state of the art crate 427 windsor.

So, I think if you get a good dual plane, as compared to a single plane, there may not be as much of a difference in HP as you may think.

I didn;t build my FE 427 with any HP figures as a target, or was intially comparing it to any other engine. I wanted to replicate a 427 FE that one could purchase from Ford at that time the 427 cobra's were being built. The HP output is what it is, and it surprised me to some degree. If it was lower, I still would have been equally satisfied, as the HP figure was really not that important to me, only to get it dyno tuned to the best it could be.

Anthony,
I have no dog in the hunt. As long as your FE is making what you have been told and your happy then thats all that matters. I wouldn't know an FE if it fell on my head! I'm just a fortunate younger generation guy that is wading through the weeds of cobra ownership for the first time

[Ace23]

The plan is to over time add a polished intake, air cleaner, and water pump in order to clean up the engine bay.

Polished the door hinges, wipers, windshield frame...basically anything that was a chrome or stainless part of the car.


Painted under the fenders with bedliner in order to strengthen the underside of the body and prevent a rock from spidering any of the paint

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by twin turbo

That's strange, all my dyno sheets show my hp and torque crossing/equal at 5252 rpm.

Well, this graph also shows the torque and HP are the same at 5252.

The difference is that the Y axis on the HP and the Torque are not the same. You need to look at each side of the graph and its corresponding curve.

Are you able to see that?

[twin turbo]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Well, this graph also shows the torque and HP are the same at 5252.

The difference is that the Y axis on the HP and the Torque are not the same. You need to look at each side of the graph and its corresponding curve.

Are you able to see that?

Ah, I see it now. Thanks for the clarification.