Supercharger vs. N/A build!

[Cobrat24]

[quote=eschaider;1376906]There is a reason that supercharged race cars run in different classes than n/a cars and it is not because the n/a cars make more power.

If you are funds limited then you should either set your sights lower (maybe accept lower power right now) and save until you can afford to build the bigger engine correctly.

Trying to make a beast of burden on a budget run like a purpose built high performance engine is a waste of your money and time. It will only increase the cost of what you want by the dollars you spend on the engine you didn't want.

Decide what you want, what it will cost and begin saving and buying parts as they present themselves to you. When you are done putting perfume on a pig it is still a pig. Budget, save, buy, build and then enjoy.


Ed[/QUOTE


Thanks Ed. I appreciate your advice man.

I plan on doing something one way or another, the cobra is too slow. So if it's slapping on heads , cam , intake and better exhaust for 450hp on the 302, although that won't be rear wheel it's better than what I have now by at least a 100hp.

[Ace23]

Why can't someone just make a root style blower like a TVS or a Whipple for a Windsor! I can't stand the sound of a whiny centrifugal supercharger and wouldn't want all the plumbing that comes with that or a turbo. A twinscrew blower would be awesome.....more torque than you could use and big hp in the upper Rpms. I bet you could run pretty low boost and makes gobs of power with a 408/427

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Ace23

Why can't someone just make a root style blower like a TVS or a Whipple for a Windsor! I can't stand the sound of a whiny centrifugal supercharger and wouldn't want all the plumbing that comes with that or a turbo. A twinscrew blower would be awesome.....more torque than you could use and big hp in the upper Rpms. I bet you could run pretty low boost and makes gobs of power with a 408/427

Try Dyers (Street Strip Roots Supercharger Kits and Blower Repair 471, 671, 871) - they have a kit for a 302W that works on a 351W with intake adapters from Price Motorsport (AP-01 and AP-04).

Holley / Weiand blowers (https://www.holley.com/products/supe.../supercharger/) would also work with the same adapters.

Couple either setup with a FiTech 'self-tuning' EFI 'power adder' system (single or dual quad) and you're good to go.
http://www.fitechefi.com/default.asp.pg-Products

[olddog]

PhotoPost Classifieds - Shelby GT 350 Paxton supercharger 289 - Powered by PhotoPost Classifieds

Just saw this in the For Sale section of this site. If interested, I would suggest pricing a new system to find out how much you would be saving. Then ask yourself, is that worth the risk and giving up a warranty?

Without a cooler you cannot push high boost levels.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by olddog

Without a cooler you cannot push high boost levels.

Water injection is an alternative:

Water Alcohol Methanol Ethanol Injection Systems - Articles - News & Updates - New Billet Aluminum Holley 4150 Water Injection Carburetor Plates

Just one of many high pressure systems.

Gary

[Cobrat24]

Just a heads up, thanks for all the advice and suggestions. My mech picked up the cobra, it goes in today for dyno before he work begins. We wanna see what it puts down at my elevation verses the elevation from where I picked it up. I'll keep you guys posted on the numbers. I'm anticipating a low hp/tq number.

I think the item I'm most excited to see is the exhaust build. My guy will be fabricating my headers and is working with Borla for the custom side pipe fit. Goal is 3.5 inch pipes into the side pipes. He hasn't disclosed the heads or cam combo but he's matching the flow rate, which is why he is changing the exhaust. I can't wait to see this setup. I will post pictures as they come along.


Came to terms with using what I have. And working on a different build down the road when I can really afford the bigger motor.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Cobrat24

Just a heads up, thanks for all the advice and suggestions. My mech picked up the cobra, it goes in today for dyno before he work begins. We wanna see what it puts down at my elevation verses the elevation from where I picked it up. I'll keep you guys posted on the numbers. I'm anticipating a low hp/tq number.

I think the item I'm most excited to see is the exhaust build. My guy will be fabricating my headers and is working with Borla for the custom side pipe fit. Goal is 3.5 inch pipes into the side pipes. He hasn't disclosed the heads or cam combo but he's matching the flow rate, which is why he is changing the exhaust. I can't wait to see this setup. I will post pictures as they come along.

Came to terms with using what I have. And working on a different build down the road when I can really afford the bigger motor.

No problem with that. One Web site that's interesting to play with is Camquest.com - it's clearly set up to sell Comp Cams products, but you can play with different combinations to get an idea of what to expect with HP, torque, when it's going to peak, etc. Is it 100% accurate? Not likely, but that's not the point - the point is to be able to select different options and see the effect those changes have on the overall result - relatively speaking, of course.

For example, I selected a 351W (close to a 302 stroked to 347 CID), and a cam with some specs to give you solid street performance (RPM Range: 2200 - 6200, Grind: 280HR, Duration @ 0.050" 224/230, Valve Lift: 0.560 / 0.598) and with good heads the Camquest tool shows >450 HP and almost 440 ft./lbs of torque. With a manual transmission that's nearly 400 RWHP.

I'm curious about the use of Borla mufflers between your exhaust manifolds / shorty headers and the side pipes. Obviously short, straight-through mufflers will be much better than catalytic converters, but why not just straight pipes? For that matter, why not go to headers between your engine and the side-pipes?

BTW, which side pipes are those, and have you checked them to see how much restriction is in them?

Perhaps worth checking out is this thread (Classic Roadster exhaust dilemma), the photos starting at post #20 show a re-build of side pipes with new, larger core mufflers to open them up.

[Cobrat24]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

I'm curious about the use of Borla mufflers between your exhaust manifolds / shorty headers and the side pipes. Obviously short, straight-through mufflers will be much better than catalytic converters, but why not just straight pipes? For that matter, why not go to headers between your engine and the side-pipes?

BTW, which side pipes are those, and have you checked them to see how much restriction is in them?

Perhaps worth checking out is this thread (Classic Roadster exhaust dilemma), the photos starting at post #20 show a re-build of side pipes with new, larger core mufflers to open them up.

Ok so to answer your question, as we all know the existing side pipe setup from the primary's to the collectors are very restrictive, not to mention within the actual sidepipe itself. The idea with this is, headers to high flow borla exhaust and borla to straight pipe no restrictions. This flows better than the exhaust with side pipe setup that is offer currently. I know there are others out there that take care of the sidepipe itself but no one offers an alternative to the collector issues from header to side pipe. If you look at those collectors , a 2 inch primary times 4 is squeezed down to really a 1 inch through that collector.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Cobrat24

Ok so to answer your question, as we all know the existing side pipe setup from the primary's to the collectors are very restrictive, not to mention within the actual sidepipe itself. The idea with this is, headers to high flow borla exhaust and borla to straight pipe no restrictions. This flows better than the exhaust with side pipe setup that is offer currently. I know there are others out there that take care of the sidepipe itself but no one offers an alternative to the collector issues from header to side pipe. If you look at those collectors , a 2 inch primary times 4 is squeezed down to really a 1 inch through that collector.

I could be wrong, but that looks like the Factory Five J-pipe (1987-1995 J-Pipe Kit - Factory Five Parts Catalog). If so, a better solution would seem to be their headers for the 302 (302 Headers - Factory Five Parts Catalog) - full size primaries all the way to the side pipes.

[Cobrat24]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

I could be wrong, but that looks like the Factory Five J-pipe (1987-1995 J-Pipe Kit - Factory Five Parts Catalog). If so, a better solution would seem to be their headers for the 302 (302 Headers - Factory Five Parts Catalog) - full size primaries all the way to the side pipes.

Yea I could go this route but then it would be like everyone else's exhaust. I like the idea of a single pipe with no primary's coming out. Besides I was told this flow rate would be ideal for my motor setup. I'll upload he photos when complete.

[Cobrat24]

Well just got the results of the Dyno..

As usual a humbling experience. 243hp/253tq. So anything being done to this will see big gains. There's our starting point.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Cobrat24

Well just got the results of the Dyno..

As usual a humbling experience. 243hp/253tq. So anything being done to this will see big gains. There's our starting point.

Dang, I think my daughter's Camry has more than that. Well, on the bright side, you have nowhere to go but up.

[Bernica]

So, assuming 20 percent loss in the drivetrain you are just over 300hp at the crank?
You have work to do!

[Cobrat24]

Yeah needless to say the guy I bought it from last summer was claiming 400hp. I knew it was less when I drove it but not this low.. Lol

[Bernica]

Dig deep!
Keep the kids in public schools and make sure they get scholarships.
Top Ramen is a good food source and use the fireplace and not the heater.
All in kidding.

[patrickt]

Originally Posted by Bernica

Dig deep!
Keep the kids...

Naaaah, if they're young enough, I think you can sell them on ebay.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by patrickt

Naaaah, if they're young enough, I think you can sell them on ebay.

Yup, you can alway make more.

[cycleguy55]

Best guess: 288 FWHP, 299 FW torque. Wheel Horsepower to Crankshaft Horsepower Guestimator

[Bernica]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

Best guess: 288 FWHP, 299 FW torque. Wheel Horsepower to Crankshaft Horsepower Guestimator

Well that's sad!
Not sure a supercharger or blower or whatever can bring you out of that!
Pull it, sell it and put what you want in there with your budget.
Just my 2c

[Cobrat24]

My mech is already getting into the motor. We will be waking it up! Stay tuned for pics and new dyno when finished. We will be using the existing motor.