Powermaster Starter not Engaging Flywheel

[ACHiPo]

My old starter was dying, so I installed a Powermaster 9403 starter this morning. Everything went fairly smoothly with the install, but the starter just spins and doesn't engage the flywheel. I can hear the solenoid click as well.

I've reviewed the instructions, FAQ, and what I could find online, but no luck so far.

Motor is a 351W-based Roush 418. It has a remote solenoid, so I jumpered the starter solenoid per instructions. Transmission is a Tremec 3550 TKO 5-speed. The distance from mounting surface to the flywheel face is 3/4".

[Texasdoc]

The 9x03 starters are the correct ones for the 0.75" mounting depth. The 9x04 ones are for those with 3/8" mounting depth.

First, make sure the mounting plate is sitting flush on the engine plate. I've heard that sometimes it gets installed just a bit offset when the starter mounting plate catches an edge on the engine plate.

Also, along the same lines, some starters have a slightly smaller hole in the motor plate. The "automatic" and "manual" labels for the transmission type should be ignored. Count the ring gear teeth, measure the flywheel depth, measure the mounting hole diameter (to the .01") and make sure you have the right part.


If it is flush, remove the starter from the car, clamp it (securely) in your bench vise, and bench test it with 12v. If the starter gear doesn't come out and spin, you have a faulty starter.

[ACHiPo]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

The 9x03 starters are the correct ones for the 0.75" mounting depth. The 9x04 ones are for those with 3/8" mounting depth.

First, make sure the mounting plate is sitting flush on the engine plate. I've heard that sometimes it gets installed just a bit offset when the starter mounting plate catches an edge on the engine plate.

Also, along the same lines, some starters have a slightly smaller hole in the motor plate. The "automatic" and "manual" labels for the transmission type should be ignored. Count the ring gear teeth, measure the flywheel depth, measure the mounting hole diameter (to the .01") and make sure you have the right part.


If it is flush, remove the starter from the car, clamp it (securely) in your bench vise, and bench test it with 12v. If the starter gear doesn't come out and spin, you have a faulty starter.

Thanks! I'm sure it's spinning--I can hear it. I'll pull it again and bench test it. I figure it's either the Bendix or geometry.

[Texasdoc]

Here is a good (but somewhat long) video on how the starter bending works.

YouTube clicky

Check the voltage at the starter. If it isn't getting 11+ volts, you may not be driving it fast enough to throw out (up) the bendix gear. If you know the starter is getting 12v and you hear the drive spinning, perhaps the bendix is stuck. If it works on the bench, you have 12v to it in the car, and it is seated flush on the block plate, I don't know why it's not engaging.

Measure how far your bendix comes out. Make sure you got a 9403 instead of a (potentially mis-labeled) shorter 9404.

Good starter dimension document

[ACHiPo]

Thanks!

[jhv48]

Originally Posted by ACHiPo

Thanks! I'm sure it's spinning--I can hear it. I'll pull it again and bench test it. Ifigutre it's either theBendix or geometry.

Spinning is only part of the starters function. It must also extend and retract the gear in order to contact the flywheel. You can hear it spin, but it might not be extending into position to engage the flywheel. Pull it and bench test it.

[ACHiPo]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

Here is a good (but somewhat long) video on how the starter bending works.

YouTube clicky

Check the voltage at the starter. If it isn't getting 11+ volts, you may not be driving it fast enough to throw out (up) the bendix gear. If you know the starter is getting 12v and you hear the drive spinning, perhaps the bendix is stuck. If it works on the bench, you have 12v to it in the car, and it is seated flush on the block plate, I don't know why it's not engaging.

Measure how far your bendix comes out. Make sure you got a 9403 instead of a (potentially mis-labeled) shorter 9404.

Good starter dimension document

Doc,
Thanks for the links. I started watching that video yesterday, but gave up. After you sent the link and I got home, I watched the whole thing. You're right--it's good, but long. That instruction sheet is much better than what I found online or in the box with my starter. Heading out to the shop after another cup and hopefully will find and fix something easy.
AC

[ACHiPo]

I figured out the problem, now I just need to figure out how to fix it. The geometry of the new starter is correct--both starters' Bendixes extend about 1 1/8". The starter's mounting flange is correct for the bell housing, and the starter sits flat on the mounting surface.

When I hook up jumper cables to the starter, I can either get the Bendix to extend, or the motor to spin--not both, depending on where I connect. So I definitely have a problem with how I'm connecting things.

Per the instructions I jumpered the starter and battery terminal on the starter when using a remote solenoid. For the bench test I assumed I'd need to use the built-in solenoid, so I connected the battery ground to the starter frame, the positive to the battery mounting post on the starter. Hooking it up this way caused the Bendix to extend, but the starter didn't spin--I've energized the solenoid, but not the motor. Reconnecting the jumper between the ignition and battery posts on the starter, the motor spins, but no extension.

Here is the way I wired the starter in the car. On the bench I get the same behavior--the motor just spins.


I also tried connecting the ground stud to the battery ground with the same result.

(I've got photos and video, but can't link or upload them).

If I remove the jumper and connect the battery to the two studs on the starter using the internal solenoid, the Bendix actuates, but no spin.

[Texasdoc]

Sounds like you have a bad starter.

For the test, apply 12v to both terminals. Make sure you are getting at least 11v WHEN ACTIVATING the starter during the test. If your bench supply doesn't give enough power, you can see what you are getting. If you have both posts connected and are applying enough power, you have a bad starter. Where/when did you buy it? Can you return it?

Or, you can call JR Richmond at PowerMaster. He is great to work with. (630)293-5900.

[ACHiPo]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

Sounds like you have a bad starter.

For the test, apply 12v to both terminals. Make sure you are getting at least 11v WHEN ACTIVATING the starter during the test. If your bench supply doesn't give enough power, you can see what you are getting. If you have both posts connected and are applying enough power, you have a bad starter. Where/when did you buy it? Can you return it?

Or, you can call JR Richmond at PowerMaster. He is great to work with. (630)293-5900.

Doc,
Thanks. I bought it from Summit. I have an email into Summit and PowerMaster, and will try calling tomorrow, although they may be shut down for the long weekend. I'll try calling JR early tomorrow morning (I'm on the West Coast).

My bench supply is the Cobra battery connected via hurky jumper cables to the starter. The battery tested above spec last weekend at Napa--above 13V as I recall. I'm not sure I have enough eyes/hands/clips to measure voltage while I'm holding everything together.

I'm confused about what you mean by "applying 12V to both terminals". I clamped the battery ground to the starter body, and the battery positive to the "battery" terminal on the starter. I then shorted the "ignition" terminal to the "battery termina"l, with and without the grounding tab on the solenoid connected to ground. When I did this the Bendix moved the gear out, but did not spin the motor. If I bypass the solenoid with a jumper (like it is in the car only without the remote solenoid), the motor spins. Kinda makes me question the remote solenoid, although it worked with the old starter.

It sure seems like I just don't have it hooked up correctly, but I don't want to just try a bunch of combinations lest I damage something.

AC

[Texasdoc]

Wiring all depends on whether you are using a separate solenoid. If you are, you should connect both posts on the starter together. Use a short piece of 14 gauge wire. (Powermaster makes a small connector for this purpose, but you don't need it.) Then connect your positive battery source (big wire from the left side of your solenoid or the positive side of your test battery) to the large post on the starter. If you do not have a separate solenoid, your battery goes to the big post on the starter and the start signal (positive 12v source coming from your key when it is in the start position) goes to the small post on the starter. Be careful with the nut on this small post. It is metric and is easy to strip the threads - ask me how I know.

with and without the grounding tab on the solenoid connected to ground.

The only ground on the ford starters is thru the mounting surface. There is not a ground post. Clamp your negative battery cable to the mounting flange. Since this ground goes thru the motor plate, to the block, thru the block ground, then to the battery, you need to make sure that path provides a good ground. I added a 10 gauge wire from the mounting bolt to the block just to make sure. If you add this ground, just make sure this is between the bolt head and the back of the starter mounting block. NOT between the mounting flange and the block plate.

Hook everything up except the final positive battery positive (the positive jumper cable from the cobra to the big post on the battery). You can connect a volt meter to the battery cable and the ground to monitor the voltage. Have a friend hold the volt meter sensors or you can use alligator clips (clicky) to hold them on the jumper cables. Then connect the final positive battery cable. It should throw out the bendix and spin.

[Gaz64]

12 volt battery to battery terminal, case grounded, nothing should happen.

Jump 12v to the ignition terminal, pinion should throw out and spin.

Something is wrong with the starter if this doesn't happen.

[ACHiPo]

Sounds like I got a bad one.

[HI Cobra]

Yours sounds like what mine was starting to do awhile ago on my 351W. It
was more of a hit or miss if it would work. Took it out, checked it out and it
seemed to work, but when I put it back on the car it started doing it again.
Went to NAPA and got a replacement for $36 (big surprise there) and everything
is fine now. The original was 17 years old and did have some use on it, so it was time.

[ACHiPo]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

Or, you can call JR Richmond at PowerMaster. He is great to work with. (630)293-5900.

Seems MCI PowerMaster may be on holiday today (unless they're not open yet?) Anyway I left a message. I wasn't able to leave it specifically for JR, as those initials weren't recognized by the auto-attendant.

[ACHiPo]

As I suspected, the starter is fine. The problem was with how I wired it (and the less-than-stellar directions which I followed to a T). I ended up needing to move the starter positive connection to the powered "right" side of the remote solenoid, remove the jumper on the starter prescribed for use with a remote solenoid, and add a starter signal wire from the "left" side of the remote solenoid to the spade lug on the starter solenoid.

I also wrapped the new starter in a thermal shield to keep it fresher longer.

Here's a pic of how I wired the remote solenoid. The black wire with the blue lug is the starter signal wire. The copper ring-lug with the red shrink wrap is power to the starter:

[Texasdoc]

As best as I can tell from the picture, basically you are bypassing this solenoid, right? Since you have the battery terminal and the starter terminal on the same post, and nothing in the left post, it is not working as a solenoid.

Since the PowerMaster has a built in solenoid, you could remove this remote solenoid and do without. Or, if it is working, leave it alone.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by Texasdoc

As best as I can tell from the picture, basically you are bypassing this solenoid, right? Since you have the battery terminal and the starter terminal on the same post, and nothing in the left post, it is not working as a solenoid.

Since the PowerMaster has a built in solenoid, you could remove this remote solenoid and do without. Or, if it is working, leave it alone.

Yes exactly right.
This remote solenoid is not functioning as a heavy current switch with both heavy cables on one post. Effectively it is now a big mounting block.
Remote solenoids are really meant for bendix drive starter motors, not solenoid equipped starter motors.

[cycleguy55]

Originally Posted by Gaz64

Yes exactly right.
This remote solenoid is not function as a heavy current switch with both heavy cables on one post. Effectively it is now a big mounting block.
Remote solenoids are really meant for bendix drive starter motors, not solenoid equipped starter motors.

That's how my Summit Protorque starter is now wired - you're essentially turning the remote solenoid into a junction block. Summit claims the solenoid on the starter is stronger than the Ford-style remote solenoid.

Summit wiring diagram: https://static.summitracing.com/glob...sum-820048.pdf

BTW, that's not how I found it. Whoever installed the starter left the Ford-style remote solenoid in place, wired normally, then ran a small jumper from the heavy cable post on the starter to the solenoid - essentially running both solenoids in series. Just one of the many goofy things I've found and fixed on this car.

[Gaz64]

Originally Posted by cycleguy55

That's how my Summit Protorque starter is now wired - you're essentially turning the remote solenoid into a junction block. Summit claims the solenoid on the starter is stronger than the Ford-style remote solenoid.

Summit wiring diagram: https://static.summitracing.com/glob...sum-820048.pdf

BTW, that's not how I found it. Whoever installed the starter left the Ford-style remote solenoid in place, wired normally, then ran a small jumper from the heavy cable post on the starter to the solenoid - essentially running both solenoids in series. Just one of the many goofy things I've found and fixed on this car.

Good move to remove it. Two solenoids effectively in tandem operation are twice as likely for a no crank condition, more components, more chance of failure.