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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2008, 12:09 PM
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Default Ford Modulars are enormous engines

Okay,

I knew that my little 4.6 (little) was small on the displacement side, but rather large on the overall size, but I didn't realize just how enormous the Ford modulars are until I was doing research for the 5.4 setup I'm doing with my cobra build.

The estimated weight of the 5.4L (DOHC) is around 540 lbs.

It's roughly 28 1/4" wide (from edge of valve cover to valve cover) 24" long and 28-35" tall from pan to top of intake (depending on the intake).

It's friggin ginormous. The 4.6 is bigger than a 429 and the 5.4 is redonkulous.

I had already picked up my engine/tranny and such for a mustang build up when I changed my mind () to go with a cobra build up. Anything to do with modulars or modern Ford stuff is a PITA and this looks to be worse.

For those of you considering doing a modular build.......don't. I'm really considering selling my engine setup and going with a nice carb'd 302. I have a mountain of money already in the thing.

It's kinda like when you have pocket aces and the flop comes out 3 of the same suit or 3 connectors. You know you oughtta lay em down, but man.....it's hard to put down pocket rockets.
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:35 PM
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yup. i looked at a 5.4 at a junkyard when i was picking up some other stuff and i realized i would never have a need for one. humongous.
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Old 03-26-2008, 01:16 PM
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Dimensionally larger than a Boss 9
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Old 03-26-2008, 01:25 PM
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To put it in perspective, check out this diagram that Bob Putnam was good enough to do and post on ERA's website

http://www.erareplicas.com/427/img/3pro_front.gif
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Old 03-26-2008, 01:26 PM
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Boy they got some nerve calling these 'small blocks'.
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Old 03-26-2008, 01:46 PM
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Yea Ernie but just think what a Big Block would look like using their definitions of these engines. Last time I was down at Bills he had about 6 of them setting in his shop that he was going to put in GTs. I was amazed at just how darn big they are.

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Old 03-26-2008, 02:15 PM
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With enough time and money, any motor will fit into vertually any engine compartment. I have a friend that stuffed a 426 Hemi into an MG.

Here is another big block .....

xlr8tr likes this.
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Old 03-26-2008, 03:00 PM
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I put one in my hurricane, Never really worked on auto motors before so I did not realize the size till I helped pull a 350 chevy out of a vette
the block is not that big its the 4 valve heads, I'm running a 4v 4.6 all aluminum from a mach 1 with a carb intake
I do not know what your app. is but I 2nd guessed my decision to use this motor till I drove it very very streetable below 3 grand but it pulls like a bat out of hell from 4 up to 7k
here is alink with some pics
http://forum.hurricane-motorsports.c...num=1175545117

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Old 03-26-2008, 03:19 PM
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great looking motor Bobby
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Old 03-26-2008, 04:41 PM
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That is nice.

I built up a 99GT a couple of years ago. Of course I had to pick the most difficult route possible. At the time, there were really no aftermarket options or the 2V intakes except the bullit and of course like most things Ford, they changed a thousand other things when they did the Bullit model.

Anyway, I was going to build up my 2007 Mustang, so I bought the engine (5.4 with forged crank, billet rods, billet pistons, 8.8:1, ported/polished 4V Navi's with built valve train and stage III Comp cams, 7 quart canton with windage tray.....the works.)

SO then I come across this guy that is able to widen the 03 cobra intake to match the Navi setup. So I have a custom widened 03 cobra intake (that still accepts the Eaton), with a modified front cover (to match the 03 pulley posts and such). Then I bought a 3.4L whipple to go on top.

I have a PA supercomp with transbrake and reverse manual v-body, stallion 3600 stall with SFI housing and twin oil coolers, lines, guage, etc with a Denny's custom drive shaft.

I had bought an 03 cobra fuel tank with twin GT pumps, wheels, tires, front suspension, Venom 2000 computerized nitrous kit, etc, etc.

All these wonderful goodies and then I fell in love with the idea of building a cobra. What a genius am I.

So now I get to go through all the agony of trying to figure out how the steering knuckle is going to clear the oil filter, and how I'm going to get headers that will exit and line up properly and how I'm going to get a custom hood fabbed to clear this monster and how I'm going to convince the ECU that the PATS isn't malfunctioning, etc, etc, etc.

After it's all done, it will be badass, but looking back, I should have just started with a built 302 if I was going to go this route.

Hell, the cams alone for this setup are $1000 shipped. (There are 4 of them). Crazy stupid. Injectors and fuel rails and coil on plug, etc are so much more expensive than an edelbrock and a demon....and then I have to pay someone $80/hour to tune the thing.

If you were considering a modular setup, don't do it unless you get the engine for free. Even then.....consider it very carfully, it may be more trouble than it's worth (or than you realize).
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Old 03-26-2008, 05:44 PM
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We've got quite a few guys running them down here. We have a ready source of the quad cam 5.4 from our locally built Ford Falcon.

With our strict emissions laws it's now pretty much a choice between the 5.4 and the GM LS series engines. Due to it's gigantic proportions and mediocre performace the 5.4 seems to be the least popular option.
To give you an idea on difference in dimensions:



The 5.4 is even wider because of it's taller deck height over the 4.6. The only way these modular motors seem to be making any decent power is with forced induction.

I think their achilies heel is the bore spacing. Ford designed the motor with a really tight bore spacing to keep the motor length as short as possible for Front Wheel Drive applications. This put a cap on the max capacity of the motor such that to get to 5.4L they had to increase the stroke so much that the motor is undersquare (stroke longer than the bore size). It's a shame because they have these fantastic 4 Valve heads that have huge flow potential but a bottom end that won't do the revs to support them. I guess this is why the factory went for forced induction to increase displacement.

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Old 03-26-2008, 05:55 PM
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what kit are you looking at the factory5 site has got lots of info on mods in cobras the guy that is most known for it is sergio who put a 03 s/c in one
as for the 5.4 I'm not sure if it will fit guys have tried but do not know how successful they were
with enough money and fab skills anything is possible!

sergios site http://www.csx427sc.citymax.com/albu...40/1444655.htm

Bobby
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Old 03-26-2008, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussie Mike View Post
We've got quite a few guys running them down here. We have a ready source of the quad cam 5.4 from our locally built Ford Falcon.

With our strict emissions laws it's now pretty much a choice between the 5.4 and the GM LS series engines. Due to it's gigantic proportions and mediocre performace the 5.4 seems to be the least popular option.
To give you an idea on difference in dimensions:



The 5.4 is even wider because of it's taller deck height over the 4.6. The only way these modular motors seem to be making any decent power is with forced induction.

I think their achilies heel is the bore spacing. Ford designed the motor with a really tight bore spacing to keep the motor length as short as possible for Front Wheel Drive applications. This put a cap on the max capacity of the motor such that to get to 5.4L they had to increase the stroke so much that the motor is undersquare (stroke longer than the bore size). It's a shame because they have these fantastic 4 Valve heads that have huge flow potential but a bottom end that won't do the revs to support them. I guess this is why the factory went for forced induction to increase displacement.

Cheers
Well, you're comparing apples to oranges.

The stock vs stock argument, the new modulars kick the hell out of the old stuff. That war/fued went on for 10 years before the old pushrod folks would fully admit that the new modulars are by far a better engine. The heads and intake are better and when properly built, with higher compression and such, the modulars make great power.

Ford opted to go with the 5.4 (which as you pointed out is basically a stroked 4.6) because of the torque it produced and emissions. I think Ford will probably up their higher end plant next year to a 6 liter + to compete with the stuff Nissan and Toyota are putting out. But that will probably be the last "big" engine made by Ford. I think you'll see that Chrysler has peaked at the 8.3l and Chevy will not offer a 7.0 liter after next year (they're replacing it with a blown 6.x liter). So snatch up your Z06's and Vipers while you still can. 15 years from now they'll be collector classics as most if not all cars will be fully electric and the small minority that aren't will be hybrid.

All things considered, my 5.4 made 1300 horsepower stuffing it with 26 psi. Do the math and the theoretical base power for the engine is in the neighborhood of 433 horsepower. It's probably higher than that, considering the inefficiencies.

The 2000 cobra R featured a 5.4 and made 385 horses. That's pretty darn good for a 331 cubic inch motor. When taken to the max, it can make quite a bit of power (i.e. wicked cams and higher compression).

Consider that a 347 would have to make 403 horsepower and a 427 would have to make nearly 500 cubes to have the equivalent efficiencies.

That's not bad. Even in bone stock, OEM setup the 281 makes over 1 hp/cube and makes 1.13 pounds/cube. Not bad for an engine that passes emissions.

Compare these numbers to the days of the old 302s and you'll (stock) and you'll find that most old timers have rose colored glasses on. There were actually years where the mustang came with 140 hp.

The first of the big blocks was the 390 which made a whopping 320 hp (but with 427 torque).

The 428 cobra jet only made 400 horsepower (even with an oversized intake and an upgraded carb).

The Boss 429 was originally "rated" at 375 hp (although understated) but it was common for aftermarket guys to get 500 hp.

The original 351W which only made a whopping 285 hp. The Boss 351 made 330hp.

The venerable 302 which lasted the longest, started out making only 230 horsepower.

So you have to compare apples to apples. If you're going to compare engines and outputs, then compare stock vs. stock or built vs. built.

There are 281 ci modulars running well over the old 1hp/cube standard and approaching the 1hp/cc benchmark (race car territory).

These engines are VERY formidable when built properly. With modern forced induction, you don't have to run a giant displacement to make power...and without the loss of streetability or driving manners.

Just like stock 302s, the new modulars respond very well to induction improvements (better cams, port/polish, better compression, etc).

The new platform, both from production efficiencies, the marketplace, emissions, economy, etc, is to take a smaller engine and slap a blower/turbo on it. That way you have the base model and the performance model. You don't need two different manufacturing facilities. No need to sacrifice gas mileage or emission standards. Just slap a turbo on it and when you put put, you save gas, when you stomp stomp, you get up and go.

I'd venture that in 20 years, you may not be able to assemble a 400+ cubic inch engine into a vehicle unless it already had one in it.
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Old 03-26-2008, 07:17 PM
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I believe the modular motor's days are numbered. The new V8 motor Ford is building is not based on the modular platform. It's a motor developed for the new Jaguar.

The modular can't be made much bigger because of the bore spacing. It's at it's maximum piston size at the moment so the only way to increase the capacity is to further increase the stroke.

I'm not saying the modular is a bad motor. Our recent track day was cleaned up by a N/A 4.6 powered Robnell Cobra. It's just an expensive motor to improve.

An Iron block 5.4 quad cam weighs about 279KG which is about 99KG more than the LS series motor. Add a blower and intercooler to it and you've bolted on another 40 or 50KG.

Guys here running a stock L76 6.0 motor can do the basics with a new cam and springs and a retune of the ECU and they are making over 400 HP at the rear wheels. That's some great bang for your buck especially when you can buy a new L76 in the crate for under $5K

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Old 03-26-2008, 08:02 PM
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I should qualify my last statement: The plan is to replace the modular motor in Australia with a new Ford/Jaguar sourced Supercharged 5.0 Litre V8. This was for the 2010 models.

I just found this interesting info when I went searching for the new Jaguar V8. It seems Indian car maker TATA has just bought Fords UK marques Land Rover and Jaguar for $2.3 Billion. However they will still be sourcing engines from Ford. It'll be interesting to see what happens now.

Cheers
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Old 03-26-2008, 09:17 PM
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AMF:

No big deal but the first FE was in 1959....332 Cu In. Weaker than Chinese Tea.
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Old 03-26-2008, 09:18 PM
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Default Mod Motors

I'm not a chevy guy but the LS series of engine is a much better design than the Ford mod. In my opinion the ford mod motor was a Turd in 1996 and is a Turd in 2008,
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Old 03-27-2008, 05:29 AM
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Here is a 5.4 in a Mustang doesn't leave much room to work on it. they are hugh.




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Old 03-27-2008, 07:00 AM
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Why did Ford abandon the SBF for the POS mod motor. It is way bigger, way heavier, and less HP than the 5.0.

The 5.0 was light and strong and compact in size. With the new head technology and camshafts out there it will outperform the mod motor every time.

What a waste.


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Old 03-27-2008, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CobraEd View Post
Why did Ford abandon the SBF for the POS mod motor. It is way bigger, way heavier, and less HP than the 5.0.

The 5.0 was light and strong and compact in size. With the new head technology and camshafts out there it will outperform the mod motor every time.

What a waste.


.
Probably for fuel mileage of course my Gt500 is only rated at 14-20mpg so thats why I had the privilege of paying $1300 gas guzzler tax.
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