351 Cleveland Question????

[Gregg(What's his name)?]

Ok is the Cleveland a Small Block or a big Block?
Now My real question. I noticed that the distributor on the Cleveland is angled about 3 degrees from verticle. Is that right?? I thought the distributor was straight up and down.

Thanks

Gregg H

[tomh440]

Hey Gregg,

I thought it was a small block, just cleveland heads instead of windsor?

tom

[Ron61]

The Cleveland didn't have as good of a bottom end as the 351 Windsor. Its main claim to fame was the great flowing heads. That is why all of the racers used the Windsor with new heads and aftermarket parts as it would stand up better. The Cleveland is a good engine and can be made reliable but here is a quote from a Ford book on engines they made back then. The 351 Windsor with good heads is a strong performance engine and will last. The Cleveland, although being a great engine and having better heads has a claim to fame as the PRETTIEST engine that Ford made. I know people who have had both and in stock for the Windsor outlasted the Cleveland consistently under the same brutal driving conditions. This is NOT a knock on the Cleveland as it can be made into a reliable and very powerful engine.

Ron

[trularin]

I have always believed the Cleveland was a "medium" block.

It bolts up to the small block pattern yet uses some big block parts.

It is a good engine if you rework the oiling system.

Just my $0.02 worth.

[767Jockey]

The Cleveland is technically a small block. What makes it unique is that it is the only small block that I am aware of with canted valves. There is definitely a history of the Cleveland having oiling problems, however just like the ancient issues of the port being too big for any bottom end grunt, the oiling problem along with the port problem has long ago been solved. The Cleveland is an awesome engine, and given the choice today I have no doubt that Shelby, had he continued with the Cobra, would have gone to Cleveland power. It's a big block head on a small block. Anyone who tells you that the Cleveland has no bottom end power, or has an oiling problem is living in the 1970's. It once was true, it is not anymore. Starting from scratch with a bare Cleveland block and a bare Windsor block and spending the same money, the Cleveland, dollar for dollar, will always make more power (assuming of course that you know what you're doing), and the upper limit on power is much higher.

The only reason Windsor's are more commonly used here is that Ford had two small blocks here at one time, and they pared down to one for financial reasons. The smaller Windsor fit more easily into more cars, and was as reliable then as it is now, so they canceled the Cleveland project strictly for financial reasons and proceeded with the Windsor. There are simply many more Windsors out there, hence many more parts available. The opposite happened down under in Australia, where the Cleveland was THE Ford small block. There has been ongoing very high quality development on the Cleveland's coming out of Australia for years, and the stuff they have produced, especially the heads, is simply awesome. If you are going to build up a Cleveland, the best thing you can do is stick with Australian heads, either CHI's or AFD's. The Edelbrock Cleveland heads are a joke.

You won't see many Windsor engines in the Engine Masters competition, but you'll see many Cleveland's. I'm not a big NASCAR fan, but my understanding is that the Fords all run a derivative of a Cleveland head. It's not a true Cleveland head but a close derivative. I can't imagine the power that can be made from a Cleveland if you spent as much on one as some spend on a Roush engine. At one time World / Mitchell engines was selling a "special edition" Cleveland headed engine for drag use that made crazy power. It is VERY easy to assemble a 700+ HP Cleveland headed engine, either with a C or W block, for $15K or so. Now, one of the guys who was in the development of the Genesis FE engine block program has come out with a redesigned Cleveland block in Aluminum or Iron, and the oiling system has been redesigned and upgraded to the point where it is now a far superior oiling system to that of the almost equally troubled Windsor engine. It can also be bored and stroked to very large sizes. Using this block, I believe that you can develop Cleveland's in excess of 460+ cu. in. with power levels approaching 1000 HP, normally aspirated, for less than $18K. Try that with a Windsor. Certainly you can build a very powerful Windsor engine, there is no denying that. However, for the same money you can make significantly more power with a Cleveland, and in a sky's the limit scenario you can make power with a Cleveland that a Windsor simply can't reach. All the info is over on the Cleveland forum.

And oh, by the way, it IS a beautiful looking engine as well, for what that's worth.....

[blykins]

A Cleveland is a small block. If a Windsor is a small block with a taller deck height, then a Cleveland is a small block.

Check out a Windsor distributor as well....they're canted slight off vertical.

[CBattaglia]

It doesnt look like a small block. Definately bigger than a 289-302. I had a 73 mustang years ago. Maybe I remember it being bigger.....?

[blykins]

Oh, it's definitely bigger than a 302. The deck height for a 289/302 is what, 8.200"?

The deck height for a 351W is 9.500".

I think a 351C deck height is 9.200" or so.

[cobrarkc]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

The Cleveland is technically a small block. What makes it unique is that it is the only small block that I am aware of with canted valves. There is definitely a history of the Cleveland having oiling problems, however just like the ancient issues of the port being too big for any bottom end grunt, the oiling problem along with the port problem has long ago been solved. The Cleveland is an awesome engine, and given the choice today I have no doubt that Shelby, had he continued with the Cobra, would have gone to Cleveland power. It's a big block head on a small block. Anyone who tells you that the Cleveland has no bottom end power, or has an oiling problem is living in the 1970's. It once was true, it is not anymore. Starting from scratch with a bare Cleveland block and a bare Windsor block and spending the same money, the Cleveland, dollar for dollar, will always make more power (assuming of course that you know what you're doing), and the upper limit on power is much higher.

The only reason Windsor's are more commonly used here is that Ford had two small blocks here at one time, and they pared down to one for financial reasons. The smaller Windsor fit more easily into more cars, and was as reliable then as it is now, so they canceled the Cleveland project strictly for financial reasons and proceeded with the Windsor. There are simply many more Windsors out there, hence many more parts available. The opposite happened down under in Australia, where the Cleveland was THE Ford small block. There has been ongoing very high quality development on the Cleveland's coming out of Australia for years, and the stuff they have produced, especially the heads, is simply awesome. If you are going to build up a Cleveland, the best thing you can do is stick with Australian heads, either CHI's or AFD's. The Edelbrock Cleveland heads are a joke.

You won't see many Windsor engines in the Engine Masters competition, but you'll see many Cleveland's. I'm not a big NASCAR fan, but my understanding is that the Fords all run a derivative of a Cleveland head. It's not a true Cleveland head but a close derivative. I can't imagine the power that can be made from a Cleveland if you spent as much on one as some spend on a Roush engine. At one time World / Mitchell engines was selling a "special edition" Cleveland headed engine for drag use that made crazy power. It is VERY easy to assemble a 700+ HP Cleveland headed engine, either with a C or W block, for $15K or so. Now, one of the guys who was in the development of the Genesis FE engine block program has come out with a redesigned Cleveland block in Aluminum or Iron, and the oiling system has been redesigned and upgraded to the point where it is now a far superior oiling system to that of the almost equally troubled Windsor engine. It can also be bored and stroked to very large sizes. Using this block, I believe that you can develop Cleveland's in excess of 460+ cu. in. with power levels approaching 1000 HP, normally aspirated, for less than $18K. Try that with a Windsor. Certainly you can build a very powerful Windsor engine, there is no denying that. However, for the same money you can make significantly more power with a Cleveland, and in a sky's the limit scenario you can make power with a Cleveland that a Windsor simply can't reach. All the info is over on the Cleveland forum.

And oh, by the way, it IS a beautiful looking engine as well, for what that's worth.....

Doug
Nice synopsis of the 2 engines. What are you going to do with the Cleveland from your car? You could buy slap on some CHI 3V heads and a stroker kit and forget that FE.LOL Just kinding but it would definately rock. I'll let you know how mine compares to my friends 482FE.
Just as Doug has explained the Cleveland is making a big comeback maybe even bigger than the FE's and the winner of the EMC was Jon Kaase with a 400C with CHI heads in fact if you look back for the last 3 or 4 years the CHI (Cleveland) headed engines have been the majority of the top 5. Back in the 70's the use to turn them to 9000rpm with the stock cast cranks.

[Gregg(What's his name)?]

I noticed that the distributor on the Cleveland is angled about 3 degrees from verticle. Is that right?

Thanks

Gregg H

[blykins]

Yes Gregg.....Windsors are too.

[roadrod2000]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

What makes it unique is that it is the only small block that I am aware of with canted valves.

You forgot about the Boss 302

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by cobrarkc

Doug
Nice synopsis of the 2 engines. What are you going to do with the Cleveland from your car? You could buy slap on some CHI 3V heads and a stroker kit and forget that FE.LOL Just kinding but it would definately rock. I'll let you know how mine compares to my friends 482FE.
Just as Doug has explained the Cleveland is making a big comeback maybe even bigger than the FE's and the winner of the EMC was Jon Kaase with a 400C with CHI heads in fact if you look back for the last 3 or 4 years the CHI (Cleveland) headed engines have been the majority of the top 5. Back in the 70's the use to turn them to 9000rpm with the stock cast cranks.

Rich, I remain a HUGE fan of the Cleveland. I get a real laugh when folks start with the old 1974 era stories about no lower end torque and the much overblown oiling "problems" of the Cleveland. The fact is those problems are long ago solved, and were never really as bad as lore suggests back when they were a problem, way back in the days of Pam Grier and polyester leisure suits. Keep in mind that the much fretted about oiling problems of the Cleveland were hardly any worse than the almost as bad oiling system of the Windsor, which is hardly the high point of automotive oiling system design itself. If not for originality I would NEVER have pulled the Cleveland from my car. I would love to do a GT40 one day, and I would love to do it with a Cleveland. Imagine a GT40 with a 8000+ RPM 460" all aluminum Cleveland singing it's 700 HP song, all for about the same price as a Roush 427 Windsor. Now THAT's a song I would love to hear! By the way, just for point of interest, the stock Cleveland cast cranks were pretty much bulletproof. You had to make insane horsepower to start thinking about having to replace it with an aftermarket piece in your build.
Hey, Rich - I see you're right over in NJ - I still have the 351C header pipes from the Contemporary and they're in great shape - you want 'em? Come and grab them, they're yours for free for the taking. I'm right on Long Island. For time estimates, I work at Newark Airport and it takes me 1 hour and 5 minutes from my driveway to the employee lot at the south end of the airport. It's a quick jump over the Goethals and the Verrazano Bridges. Let me know. By the way, I sold the engine to a guy who's going to build it up and put it in a Torino GT. Nice car, great engine. I can't wait to see it done.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by roadrod2000

You forgot about the Boss 302

Uhhhh.....same Cleveland 4V heads, on a 302 Windsor block.

[CobraEd]

Is the "Y" block a big block or a small block ??

[roadrod2000]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

Uhhhh.....same Cleveland 4V heads, on a 302 Windsor block.

wellllllllll yeah but not quite, different water passage, screw-in rocker studs, pushrod guides.

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

Is the "Y" block a big block or a small block ??

Who cares?

[Gregg(What's his name)?]

Remind me not to start the Taste Great.... Less Filling Thread.

Gregg H

[jshel1]

What remains after having her Highness Motorcarriage 37 in your garage for a couple of weeks?

Lets call it 21 days (and nights), until San Marcos... but who am I to prod, took me 5 months to crank 38... though I did have to source custom exhaust.

[Gregg(What's his name)?]

John,

Its been a whole 2 weeks and I am having to rerun the fuel lines and find a few parts for the small/medium block 351 Cleveland. SO I am actually hoping to fire the bad boy up next weekend. I have to work this weekend. But I hope to make San Marcus with the car.

Gregg H