351 Cleveland Question????

[Gregg(What's his name)?]

Ok is the Cleveland a Small Block or a big Block?
Now My real question. I noticed that the distributor on the Cleveland is angled about 3 degrees from verticle. Is that right?? I thought the distributor was straight up and down.

Thanks

Gregg H

[tomh440]

Hey Gregg,

I thought it was a small block, just cleveland heads instead of windsor?

tom

[Ron61]

The Cleveland didn't have as good of a bottom end as the 351 Windsor. Its main claim to fame was the great flowing heads. That is why all of the racers used the Windsor with new heads and aftermarket parts as it would stand up better. The Cleveland is a good engine and can be made reliable but here is a quote from a Ford book on engines they made back then. The 351 Windsor with good heads is a strong performance engine and will last. The Cleveland, although being a great engine and having better heads has a claim to fame as the PRETTIEST engine that Ford made. I know people who have had both and in stock for the Windsor outlasted the Cleveland consistently under the same brutal driving conditions. This is NOT a knock on the Cleveland as it can be made into a reliable and very powerful engine.

Ron

[trularin]

I have always believed the Cleveland was a "medium" block.

It bolts up to the small block pattern yet uses some big block parts.

It is a good engine if you rework the oiling system.

Just my $0.02 worth.

[767Jockey]

The Cleveland is technically a small block. What makes it unique is that it is the only small block that I am aware of with canted valves. There is definitely a history of the Cleveland having oiling problems, however just like the ancient issues of the port being too big for any bottom end grunt, the oiling problem along with the port problem has long ago been solved. The Cleveland is an awesome engine, and given the choice today I have no doubt that Shelby, had he continued with the Cobra, would have gone to Cleveland power. It's a big block head on a small block. Anyone who tells you that the Cleveland has no bottom end power, or has an oiling problem is living in the 1970's. It once was true, it is not anymore. Starting from scratch with a bare Cleveland block and a bare Windsor block and spending the same money, the Cleveland, dollar for dollar, will always make more power (assuming of course that you know what you're doing), and the upper limit on power is much higher.

The only reason Windsor's are more commonly used here is that Ford had two small blocks here at one time, and they pared down to one for financial reasons. The smaller Windsor fit more easily into more cars, and was as reliable then as it is now, so they canceled the Cleveland project strictly for financial reasons and proceeded with the Windsor. There are simply many more Windsors out there, hence many more parts available. The opposite happened down under in Australia, where the Cleveland was THE Ford small block. There has been ongoing very high quality development on the Cleveland's coming out of Australia for years, and the stuff they have produced, especially the heads, is simply awesome. If you are going to build up a Cleveland, the best thing you can do is stick with Australian heads, either CHI's or AFD's. The Edelbrock Cleveland heads are a joke.

You won't see many Windsor engines in the Engine Masters competition, but you'll see many Cleveland's. I'm not a big NASCAR fan, but my understanding is that the Fords all run a derivative of a Cleveland head. It's not a true Cleveland head but a close derivative. I can't imagine the power that can be made from a Cleveland if you spent as much on one as some spend on a Roush engine. At one time World / Mitchell engines was selling a "special edition" Cleveland headed engine for drag use that made crazy power. It is VERY easy to assemble a 700+ HP Cleveland headed engine, either with a C or W block, for $15K or so. Now, one of the guys who was in the development of the Genesis FE engine block program has come out with a redesigned Cleveland block in Aluminum or Iron, and the oiling system has been redesigned and upgraded to the point where it is now a far superior oiling system to that of the almost equally troubled Windsor engine. It can also be bored and stroked to very large sizes. Using this block, I believe that you can develop Cleveland's in excess of 460+ cu. in. with power levels approaching 1000 HP, normally aspirated, for less than $18K. Try that with a Windsor. Certainly you can build a very powerful Windsor engine, there is no denying that. However, for the same money you can make significantly more power with a Cleveland, and in a sky's the limit scenario you can make power with a Cleveland that a Windsor simply can't reach. All the info is over on the Cleveland forum.

And oh, by the way, it IS a beautiful looking engine as well, for what that's worth.....

[blykins]

A Cleveland is a small block. If a Windsor is a small block with a taller deck height, then a Cleveland is a small block.

Check out a Windsor distributor as well....they're canted slight off vertical.

[cobrarkc]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

The Cleveland is technically a small block. What makes it unique is that it is the only small block that I am aware of with canted valves. There is definitely a history of the Cleveland having oiling problems, however just like the ancient issues of the port being too big for any bottom end grunt, the oiling problem along with the port problem has long ago been solved. The Cleveland is an awesome engine, and given the choice today I have no doubt that Shelby, had he continued with the Cobra, would have gone to Cleveland power. It's a big block head on a small block. Anyone who tells you that the Cleveland has no bottom end power, or has an oiling problem is living in the 1970's. It once was true, it is not anymore. Starting from scratch with a bare Cleveland block and a bare Windsor block and spending the same money, the Cleveland, dollar for dollar, will always make more power (assuming of course that you know what you're doing), and the upper limit on power is much higher.

The only reason Windsor's are more commonly used here is that Ford had two small blocks here at one time, and they pared down to one for financial reasons. The smaller Windsor fit more easily into more cars, and was as reliable then as it is now, so they canceled the Cleveland project strictly for financial reasons and proceeded with the Windsor. There are simply many more Windsors out there, hence many more parts available. The opposite happened down under in Australia, where the Cleveland was THE Ford small block. There has been ongoing very high quality development on the Cleveland's coming out of Australia for years, and the stuff they have produced, especially the heads, is simply awesome. If you are going to build up a Cleveland, the best thing you can do is stick with Australian heads, either CHI's or AFD's. The Edelbrock Cleveland heads are a joke.

You won't see many Windsor engines in the Engine Masters competition, but you'll see many Cleveland's. I'm not a big NASCAR fan, but my understanding is that the Fords all run a derivative of a Cleveland head. It's not a true Cleveland head but a close derivative. I can't imagine the power that can be made from a Cleveland if you spent as much on one as some spend on a Roush engine. At one time World / Mitchell engines was selling a "special edition" Cleveland headed engine for drag use that made crazy power. It is VERY easy to assemble a 700+ HP Cleveland headed engine, either with a C or W block, for $15K or so. Now, one of the guys who was in the development of the Genesis FE engine block program has come out with a redesigned Cleveland block in Aluminum or Iron, and the oiling system has been redesigned and upgraded to the point where it is now a far superior oiling system to that of the almost equally troubled Windsor engine. It can also be bored and stroked to very large sizes. Using this block, I believe that you can develop Cleveland's in excess of 460+ cu. in. with power levels approaching 1000 HP, normally aspirated, for less than $18K. Try that with a Windsor. Certainly you can build a very powerful Windsor engine, there is no denying that. However, for the same money you can make significantly more power with a Cleveland, and in a sky's the limit scenario you can make power with a Cleveland that a Windsor simply can't reach. All the info is over on the Cleveland forum.

And oh, by the way, it IS a beautiful looking engine as well, for what that's worth.....

Doug
Nice synopsis of the 2 engines. What are you going to do with the Cleveland from your car? You could buy slap on some CHI 3V heads and a stroker kit and forget that FE.LOL Just kinding but it would definately rock. I'll let you know how mine compares to my friends 482FE.
Just as Doug has explained the Cleveland is making a big comeback maybe even bigger than the FE's and the winner of the EMC was Jon Kaase with a 400C with CHI heads in fact if you look back for the last 3 or 4 years the CHI (Cleveland) headed engines have been the majority of the top 5. Back in the 70's the use to turn them to 9000rpm with the stock cast cranks.

[roadrod2000]

Originally Posted by 767Jockey

What makes it unique is that it is the only small block that I am aware of with canted valves.

You forgot about the Boss 302

[blykins]

Yes Gregg.....Windsors are too.

[iva bigan]

Yeah boys
you also forgot to mention how tough a cleveland can sound especially with a bit of a cam in it

[Rick Yeager]

767Jockey, who is building the new iron Cleveland block and how could they be reached?
Thanks, Rick

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by Rick Yeager

767Jockey, who is building the new iron Cleveland block and how could they be reached?
Thanks, Rick

Rick, the guys name is Tod Buttermore, my understanding is that he was an instrumental player in the development of the Genesis FE block. His email address is tlb427351@yahoo.com. I have never met him or spoken with him, and I have no dealings with his company. I have heard that since his is a very small company he can at times be somewhat challenging to get in touch with, but he is supposedly a good guy and a straight shooter. Be patient, he will get back to you. His whole project is very exciting. I would HIGHLY suggest that you subscribe to the 351 Cleveland forum. The software that runs it is prehistoric and difficult to initially sign up with, but the info on Cleveland's is priceless. Good luck.

[trularin]

Relative to the oiling in the Cleveland, there are a few mods that make the engine sing.

I have cranked my Boss 351 to 9100 RPMs ( with a few Hail Marys ). If you are interested in the changes I made, pm me.

I agree with everyone that the heads are deep breathers. I have the adjustable valve train Boss GA heads and believe they flow well as Stock Ford parts.

I would have to say that in these current economic times, you need to know how much you want to spend on your engine if you are starting out.

BTW, if you are looking for someone to do your engine, Brent does a excellent job.

Just my $0.02 worth.

[trularin]

Anyone who tells you that the Cleveland has no bottom end power, or has an oiling problem is living in the 1970's.

I'll add; since Clevelands were produced to 1975, I think it would be hard to find a Cleveland that doesn't have an oiling problem. Unless you change the system, it will have a problem.

[CobraEd]

Is the flathead a small block ???


.

[Jac Mac]

Originally Posted by CobraEd

Is the flathead a small block ???


.

Yes very small, until its a V12, then its a long block!!

[767Jockey]

Originally Posted by trularin

I'll add; since Clevelands were produced to 1975, I think it would be hard to find a Cleveland that doesn't have an oiling problem. Unless you change the system, it will have a problem.

Of course! However, as you said, the mods are now well known and easily accomplished, and with the mods completed, the engine will sing all day long and live a long healthy life.

[1985 CCX]

I am satisfied with mine.......Boss351

[cobrarkc]

Originally Posted by 1985 CCX

I am satisfied with mine.......Boss351

Another fine example!

Jeff How is everything going? Haven't seen you here much lately. Looks like you could use a bigger air filter on that motor. It's holding back it's potential! Can you get a drop base on there?

[roadrod2000]

If anyone questions the authenticity of a 351 in a Cobra then check this out.