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03-16-2008, 08:12 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Flower Mound,
TX
Cobra Make, Engine: JBL - TK0600, Electromotive EFI, Keith Craft 408W "standard crate", ~575hp
Posts: 399
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Not Ranked
KCM 408 Oil Troubleshooting - Coolant Pressure test next
John,
It is hard to say exactly how much... it is a bunch, I started with a few paper towels to try and "swab" it out and gave up after about 8-10 and it still had a fair amount.
I am going to do a coolant system pressure check next. My hope is this is a "gap" in a gasket between at the intake manifold and not a crack in the block
I was just thinking about this again....so if the Oil pressure is 25+ PSI and the water pressure is 16 PSI if their is a "gap" in a gasket somewhere it should leak from the High pressure to the low pressure... so since I am seeing oil in the water this could indicate I have a gasket problem that is allowing this transfer from High Pressure to low pressure.
I have somewhat eliminated the head gasket since the pressures are all between 140 and 155 PSI when I tested this yesterday.
Since the motor only has just under the 3k miles...if it has a crack it came this way But this would not be under warranty
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03-16-2008, 10:44 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Flower Mound,
TX
Cobra Make, Engine: JBL - TK0600, Electromotive EFI, Keith Craft 408W "standard crate", ~575hp
Posts: 399
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Not Ranked
Intake Manifold leak
So after the pressure test I have found a leak at the intake manifold on the driver side at the very front of the block. so... now to determine if i can get it into a shop ASAP to replace the gasket... or to do myself
I fear is it could still be leaking at the head gasket also, I spend a bunch of time replacing the intake manifold and then determine it still requires the head gasket to be replaced (ug)
What fun... have never done a intake manifold replacement... but what better time to learn
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03-16-2008, 11:24 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Diego,
CA
Cobra Make, Engine: BDR #455, KC427W, TWM-FI
Posts: 727
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Not Ranked
I hate to ask an obvious question... Have you re-torqued the intake manifold bolts? I have checked and had to do mine 3 times with only 700 miles on the engine (which seems excessive to me). Maybe KCR has some slippery bolts!!!
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03-16-2008, 12:28 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Marcos california,
CA
Cobra Make, Engine: 1989 KCC from South Africa Right Hand Drive
Posts: 1,597
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Not Ranked
With a new engine one needs to retorque all those kind of bolts after every drive. Valve cover,intake ,headers, oil pan etc.The oil in the coolant thing still worries me,as does that low oil pressure.
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03-16-2008, 12:51 PM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Nov 2003
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #698 428 Toploader
Posts: 291
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Not Ranked
I dont see how leaking intake gaskets would get oil in the coolant, coolant in the oil yes. There is no oil pressure in the manifold, only oil splashed from the cam lifters. Am I missing something?
As far as the oil pressure it sounds like you have an electric gauge, maybe pick up a mechanical one to check the pressure. Even if you only hook it up temporary.
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03-16-2008, 01:00 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Marcos california,
CA
Cobra Make, Engine: 1989 KCC from South Africa Right Hand Drive
Posts: 1,597
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Not Ranked
That's what I have been saying ,I am not quite sure how the oil would get in the coolant other than a crack somewhere,or porosity in the block??
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03-16-2008, 01:18 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Flower Mound,
TX
Cobra Make, Engine: JBL - TK0600, Electromotive EFI, Keith Craft 408W "standard crate", ~575hp
Posts: 399
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Not Ranked
Yea... I am scratching my head... I really hope it is not a crack in the block.
The only thing that makes really sense is for the head gasket to be leaking (or a crack in the block) I am trying to rule out the cracked block since the motor is basically new but with my luck... that is the problem
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03-16-2008, 02:41 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Flower Mound,
TX
Cobra Make, Engine: JBL - TK0600, Electromotive EFI, Keith Craft 408W "standard crate", ~575hp
Posts: 399
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Not Ranked
retorqued the bolts... leak went away
Figure I had check the torque on the bolts before... did not even think of that. I did a quick check and the leak went away on the intake manifold.
So I am back to the start as compression is good across the cylinders and now the manifold does not seem to be leaking... there is a good chance I have a cracked block
Seems I am going to need the professionals for this one
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03-17-2008, 03:55 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Jul 2002
Cobra Make, Engine: KMP329 w/KC489 Shelby
Posts: 392
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Not Ranked
Pull the intake. If you had Fel-Pro gaskets, which I know KC used at one time, they have had some problems. Thank God you don't have a Big Block and need to change the intake gasket as I had to on mine. I went with Victor Reinz (Sp?) gaskets. They work great.
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03-19-2008, 02:03 PM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Fallbrook, CA USA,
CA
Cobra Make, Engine: Porsche 928 S4
Posts: 739
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Not Ranked
Chris,
It is very important that you clean the cooling system and in particular the radiator very well. You cannot have any oil left in the system after you repair the leak.
Any oil residue will greatly reduce the cooling capability of the radiator. The oil will act as a insulator as it will coat the passages and as we know oil transfers heat much slower than water.
I would take the unit out and flush it with perchloroethylene and then with dilute muriatic acid. (Which is a oxymoron as muriatic acid is dilute Hydrochloric acid after all.)
Hope your problem is minor.
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03-19-2008, 05:17 PM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Huntington,
VT
Cobra Make, Engine: E-M 427 Top Oiler stroked to 482 by KC, Stage 2 heads, a Quikfuel and Voila, 640 hp
Posts: 501
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Not Ranked
Is Rob still under the 57 chebby? Has anyone from KCR gotten back to you?
Keith might just be lurking after the whole Roush thread. Not to mention the World Products thread! Real tough crowd around here.
Did you do a leak down test or just a compression test?
Tim
__________________
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03-19-2008, 05:23 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: San Marcos california,
CA
Cobra Make, Engine: 1989 KCC from South Africa Right Hand Drive
Posts: 1,597
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Not Ranked
He has oil in the coolant? The compression was even. Leaking rings are not going to put oil in the coolant....I don't think!
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03-19-2008, 05:27 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Flower Mound,
TX
Cobra Make, Engine: JBL - TK0600, Electromotive EFI, Keith Craft 408W "standard crate", ~575hp
Posts: 399
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Not Ranked
Tim,
Yea I spoke with Rob at KCMM. I did the compression test and the coolant pressure test. Both seem to indicate there should not be a leak.
I did show a leak at the top of the intake manifold but when I tightened up the manifold it went away... But there are not a lot of places (gasket) in a 351W where there is high pressure oil near the coolant... only in the block really (i.e. crack)
I did finally do a test of the oil pressure and it read near 60 so it seems I have a bad AutoMeter gauge...
My plan is to do a flush and determine if I am still getting oil or if it was a contamination problem, but my luck in cracked block
More to come
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03-19-2008, 05:32 PM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Huntington,
VT
Cobra Make, Engine: E-M 427 Top Oiler stroked to 482 by KC, Stage 2 heads, a Quikfuel and Voila, 640 hp
Posts: 501
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Not Ranked
A cylinder leak down test will also look at valve seat integrity and the head gasket seal at each cylinder. A compression test won't do anything but show you an average compression in each combustion chamber. I'm still not convinced either test would show how oil got into the cooling system.
Tim
__________________
At first, nothing happened. Then after a few seconds, nothing continued to happen.
Douglas Adams - Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy
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03-19-2008, 07:20 PM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Frisco,
TX
Cobra Make, Engine: ERA #122 (Sold) : Ford GT #484 Heritage Edition; 2008 GT500 Red/Black
Posts: 1,075
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Not Ranked
Problem Chris has got is we are talking Small bock vs FE. On the smallblock there are no high pressure oil passages in the heads...so your head gaskets are out...really your only going to get it when oil and water jackets in the block have a leak into them..
you did check the oil to coolant flapper valve right? Make sure thats not stuck
Just kidding..Chris did you have any oil in the coolant? I saw Rob today and he said he had talked to you a couple of times since last week. I might be tempted to flush the system and refil it fresh then run it for a while and flush it again and see if any oil is in the coolant before I freak but how would it get there in the first place..
__________________
2006 Ford GT #484 Heritage Edition
2003 Hummer H1 OpenTop
2003 Hummer H1 Wagon
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03-19-2008, 11:21 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Arkadelphia, AR,
AR
Cobra Make, Engine: Kirkham 427 brushed aluminum with Keith Craft 527C.I. all aluminum FE
Posts: 992
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Not Ranked
oil in radiator
I have been out a few days with the family since it is spring break for the kids here. This is the first I seen of this but did talk with Rob about it today. The only thing that I can think of at the moment is a possible crack in an oil galley. It might only open up after the engine has gotten to operation temperature. These things are hard to check for and about the only way would be to get the engine up to about 200 and then drain the oil out of the pan and pressure test the cooling system to see if any water runs out of the block. I do not believe I have seen a 351W block cracked from the oil galley to the water passages. About the time we think we seen it all we see something else.
I would do as suggested and flush the radiator good and then the engine again for a while to see if the oil shows up again. I would assume that the car has been where nothing could have froze over the winter. Let me know what you find out. Thanks, Keith Craft
__________________
Keith C
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03-20-2008, 05:58 AM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: McKinney,
TX
Cobra Make, Engine: SPF #867 gone....
Posts: 1,272
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Not Ranked
Chris, let us know if you need help this weekend to get you Austin-bound.
Your T.I.T. is here to help.
__________________
MadMiles442
She said, "The only thing I'll ask of you, you gotta promise not to stop when I say when..."
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03-20-2008, 06:41 AM
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Senior Club Cobra Member
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: The Colony,
TX
Cobra Make, Engine: CSX 4973
Posts: 334
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Not Ranked
I know this sounds silly, but is there any way one of your kids could have put the oil in the expansion tank. Kids can do the darndest things.
__________________
David
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03-20-2008, 09:51 AM
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CC Member
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Flower Mound,
TX
Cobra Make, Engine: JBL - TK0600, Electromotive EFI, Keith Craft 408W "standard crate", ~575hp
Posts: 399
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Not Ranked
I wish... Andrew is only 3... so not likely
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03-20-2008, 09:01 PM
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CC Member
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: St. Louisville,
Oh
Cobra Make, Engine: A&C 67 427 cobra SB
Posts: 2,444
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Not Ranked
I have to ask. Is there an oil cooler that is water/oil?
I have seen oil/air oil coolers set up to put the oil through a heat exchanger in the radiator to heat the oil back up if it is too cold when it comes out of the oil/air cooler.
I have also seen oil/water heat exchanger right at the oil filter on the newer Modular engines.
Might be worth tracing out all the external oil lines and water lines.
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