Air filter on webers

[Full Throttle Al]

The motor is a NOS SOHC 427, "Cammer", serial number 589 of about 1100 total produced. I have been driving it without air cleaners for 14 years, but only about 2500 miles total.

Keep in mind that some of the best race cars of all time, including original Cobra's, ran Weber's without air cleaners.

It is one thing to expose the engine to a dusty enviornment, but keep in mind that many cars now come with 100,000 mile air filters. Just how much dirt/dust are you trapping in 100,000 milies., I would venture to say, not that much.

Webers, carbs of any type, are not the state of the art anymore. I choose Weber's because of their history and looks and I think (my opinion) that air filters, even screens, detract from that goal.

No doubt, others will disagree with my opinion and will not hesitate to share their views on the matter!

[dallas_]

Originally Posted by Full Throttle Al

The motor is a NOS SOHC 427, "Cammer", serial number 589 of about 1100 total produced. I have been driving it without air cleaners for 14 years, but only about 2500 miles total.

No doubt, others will disagree with my opinion and will not hesitate to share their views on the matter!

In my view, When you pop the hood and show that bad boy, you can say whatever you want!

[tin-man]

Originally Posted by dallas_

In my view, When you pop the hood and show that bad boy, you can say whatever you want!

Amen, I will second that. That is without a doubt a mighty fine lookin' engine. Congratulations.

tin-man

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by Full Throttle Al

".......Keep in mind that some of the best race cars of all time, including original Cobra's, ran Weber's without air cleaners..........."

race cars, Cobra & otherwise, are rebuilt after every race weekend or two. There are several reasons for doing that, not the least of which is that the clearances have increased beyond acceptable tolerances.

Are you willing to rebuild your engine after every few hundred miles?

Originally Posted by Full Throttle Al

"..........Just how much dirt/dust are you trapping in 100,000 milies., I would venture to say, not that much. .........."

have you ever changed an air filter? It doesn't sound like it.

Lay out a white tablecloth. Remove an air filter from any car that has seen a few thousand miles of normal service. Tap the filter repeatedly against the tablecloth.

Bet it isn't white anymore.

It doesn't take ounces of dirt to destroy an engine, when mixed with gas & oil. Only a few milligrams will do the job nicely.

But hey, it's your car to use & abuse however you see fit. But you're in denial if you think doing without filtration has no drawbacks.

Z.

[Bill E]

Cant seem to make the pitchers work so click on the camera button and got to the Bad ass album this air cleaner is on Michael O' Hair,s car that he is waiting Simi pashiently for me to finish.

[Bill E]

Maby this will work

[Dimis]

Originally Posted by Bill E

Maby this will work

Winner! Winner!
Chicken dinner!

Best of both worlds.
'nough said...

[Bill E]

Not finished as of yet in that photo, it is still a bit dirty. I will post more pictures as I get farther along. It sure is a ***** to get it all lined up. The customer is a bit anxious to get it deliverd, understandably so, but when you have to wait for someone else to do their part, it puts you behind....and as we know, "CRAP ROLLS DOWN HILL". He is on this forum and may have more photos of the car.

[Caprimaniac]

Bill; that sure is impressive. I have been struggling with a new filtration & cold air intake and done several attempst before I fell down on one design. Although- by far not looking anywhere as good as this one...Will post below.

As I cannot see the details in the hood, I need to ask if you use some kind of rubber or anything to meet the rim of the air horns?

And also- do you use solid engine mounts? What's worrying me about my setup is the engine twisting the fiberglass hood....

[Caprimaniac]

Here's my solution.

Grabbing cold air from the front/ grille and scooping it into a semi- sealed box through a K & N BMW M5 panel filter.







Hopefuly, it will work- although it's kind of stoneage......

[Bill E]

The mounts are not solid, just stock Mustang. The foam that meets the horns is a closed cell. fire resistant 3/4" thick

[Caprimaniac]

The 3/4" foam will take up the engine movements.

You have some kind of box under the hood, Bill. Does the air enter through the top of hood? If so, do you know if this is a high- or a low airpressure zone? I I ask because I'm looking at the option myself.)

I have only 1/2" of softrubber. Although the engine mounts are (hard)rubber, I doubt the enigne will twist or bounce to a very large extent. Last year I got into trouble- the engine was tilted quite an amount. Reason was a broken steel engine mount. Will not happen again.

[Bill E]

Yes it is high presher, and it comes through the scoop. 2 air filters

[Jac Mac]

Caprimaniac, Im assuming you have a late 60's early 70's Capri

[Caprimaniac]

Great, Jac.

Thanks alot. Did you write & sketch that note?

It's interesting. As you can see from the photos, the angeled rear face of the hood scoop have been removed. And me & my pals have been trying to figure wether this is a low or high pressure are. - Suitable for wenting or intake. We, maybe, solved this question with 3 inch of wool thread. While driving, the thread clearly made is way out of the opening. Which, made us conlude it is a low pressure area. - The oposite to the connclusion in your note. Even more, our thery was that the high pressure zone was above the ventilating plenum- exactly as the note says.


Impressive you could see it was a early Capri from the engine bay pics. Although, if you've stared into a Capri enginebay earlier in life- it's been etched onto your retina.... And what's funny is that I've asked for info on airstream/ windtunnel/ high-low pressure zones on Capri fora without anyone coming up with anything.

Once again; CC has alot of great resources - even Capri related! I have come across other people with Capri knowledge at CC before. I have also stated (somewhere) that I have no Cobra, but a Capri and use (& maybe contribute?) the weber & small block ++ resources.

[zrayr]

Originally Posted by Caprimaniac

"...............As you can see from the photos, the angeled rear face of the hood scoop have been removed. And me & my pals have been trying to figure wether this is a low or high pressure are. - Suitable for wenting or intake. We, maybe, solved this question with 3 inch of wool thread. While driving, the thread clearly made is way out of the opening. Which, made us conlude it is a low pressure area. - The oposite to the connclusion in your note................."

your testing with the wool thread, while admirable, has led you to the wrong conclusions. The rear end of hood scoops, just forward of the windshield has long been known to be a high pressure area.

Ford wind tunnel testing done at the request of Carroll Shelby in the 1960's (for the GT-350 development) showed that a hood scoop with the opening in the rear was much more effective in directing air to the carb & engine bay versus an opening in the front of the scoop. Shelby concluded that, despite this advantage of the rear opening scoop, Shelby Mustangs would have front opening scoops solely for cosmetic purposes. They just looked better. Function took a back seat.

Z.

[bobcowan]

Originally Posted by zrayr

your testing with the wool thread, while admirable, has led you to the wrong conclusions. The rear end of hood scoops, just forward of the windshield has long been known to be a high pressure area.

Z.

Yes, and no. The high pressure area has always been at the base of the windshield. And that means the small area right at the base. It's not a very big zone. On an older Mustang, that would be at the cowl vent area. As you move further away from the base, you lose that small high pressure zone.

The yarn test is pretty accurate and doesn't lie; where the yarn goes is where the air flows. It show that the back of the hood scoop on the Capri is probably feeding that high pressure zone.

Look at the cowl unduction hoods on a Camaro that's designed to work, and not just look good. The opening is moved back as far as possible to get it into that zone, and still allow the hood to open. If you wanted to take advantage of that high pressure zone on a Cobra, you'de have to get your air from the same place. Extend the air cleaner back, and create a new opening at the cowl; or extend the rear opening hood scoop back to within a few inches of the windshield.

Look at the air cleaner set ups for a cup car. It actually gets all it's air from the cowl area, directly at the base of the windshield.

[Jac Mac]

Originally Posted by Caprimaniac

Great, Jac.

Thanks alot. Did you write & sketch that note?

It's interesting. As you can see from the photos, the angeled rear face of the hood scoop have been removed. And me & my pals have been trying to figure wether this is a low or high pressure are. - Suitable for wenting or intake. We, maybe, solved this question with 3 inch of wool thread. While driving, the thread clearly made is way out of the opening. Which, made us conlude it is a low pressure area. - The oposite to the connclusion in your note. Even more, our thery was that the high pressure zone was above the ventilating plenum- exactly as the note says.


Impressive you could see it was a early Capri from the engine bay pics. Although, if you've stared into a Capri enginebay earlier in life- it's been etched onto your retina.... And what's funny is that I've asked for info on airstream/ windtunnel/ high-low pressure zones on Capri fora without anyone coming up with anything.

Once again; CC has alot of great resources - even Capri related! I have come across other people with Capri knowledge at CC before. I have also stated (somewhere) that I have no Cobra, but a Capri and use (& maybe contribute?) the weber & small block ++ resources.

Yep, the note was sketched up on the 'paint' program of the PC, Have been involved with several ''OSCA'' Capris here in NZ,[ Open Saloon Car Association]', Built another 351c powered one only 5 years ago for a local guy who wanted to relive his youth. They were a very popular car in the class in the early 70's/80's.
We used the 'tuft' test on the TVR I work on to establish the 'zone', also if you have a close look at some of the original 'Daytona Coupe' pics you will see the intake opening is about 10" wide by 3" high on a reverse slope area right at the back of the hood and about 8" to 10" in front of the w/screen base, works fine for them as well. Nothing much will happen with the tuft until you get up around 40/50 mph, but from there onward its all good, the better you seal the airbox to the hood or plenum area the better it gets..

With regard to the mistaken indication that it was better as an outward vent, this comes from too much air being rammed in around the radiator etc, to cure this use a front airdam to create a low pressure area under the car and add vent holes to the inner guards behind the front axle line, the front wheels create another low pressure area behind them to assist in evacuation under the hood. Once you get the intake air from outside and realise that most radiators only require an intake/grill area approx one third of the radiators core area you will start to get on top of the issues your having.... its not really a matter of getting more air in, its more a case of getting the heated air out.

[Bill E]

I had a lot of help from an aerodynamics company on this car. Lots of testing was done on this set up. This is the set up you want for the best results . It is a lot of work. You will need a tilt front end to pull it off. This could gain as much as 20 MPR in the top end. This car has tied the track record at Thunder hill at one time.

[Caprimaniac]

This is an interesting discussion.
A rear facing scoop with opening as close to the windscreen is good; here is a high pressure zone - 100% true. As you all say. After looking at all kinds of pressure zone/ IR- photos of wind tunnel cars I could come across- the highest pressure zone is to be found at the front of the car- at least on a road car with some frontal area. (On a sleek can- am racer the picture is different.) That is why I scooped the air fron the grille, which ofcours also serves the rad and the oil cooler. And also- of course- hot & unwanted under-bonnet air is going out on the middle flanges of the hood- a low pressure area.

As a friend did the wool- thread/ yarn- test, I do not trust him and will do it all over again to see what conlcusions i can find.

Yes, Jac Mac- you are probably correct on the "too much air under the bonnet" theory. In the pictured Capri there's much more restricted front air intake area than on my friends ride. Hopefully, it will do wonders... Also a different outcome of the Wooly experiment.

Very interesting to see you have been working on the NZ Capri racers. Been looking at some V8 Capri's from the green island, although some time ago. I have read alot of your posts in the Weber- department. I was 100% certain you inhibited US of A as Capri's are quite popular as a racer there, as well. (Although- used to be is a better statement- there were more in the 80's, as I understand, than now.)

It's a small world and you come by people with Euro- Capri experience wherever you go. Her, there, Corner Carvers, SBFtech and Club Cobra.